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Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

MildSteel said:
He didn't have anything buy bad choices in front of him.
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I take it you're Russian? Otherwise you would have no other reason to defend Putin.

The man needs to get out of the mentality of the former Soviet Union and do what's right for hs country not his ego.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
I take it you're Russian? Otherwise you would have no other reason to defend Putin.

The man needs to get out of the mentality of the former Soviet Union and do what's right for hs country not his ego.
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No I am not Russian. There is a lot at stake. The truth needs to be told on this issue.
 
MildSteel said:
No I am not Russian. There is a lot at stake. The truth needs to be told on this issue.
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Indeed. I've lived in both mainland Ukraine and Crimea. I've witnessed Putin's handicraft firsthand. Слава Україні
 
EnigmaO01 said:
My thinking is your idea of the truth is your opinion.
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I am trying to tell the truth. I don't want to see the world go up in flames because of distorted propaganda.
 
Simpleχity;1064166461 said:
Indeed. I've lived in both mainland Ukraine and Crimea. I've witnessed Putin's handicraft firsthand. Слава Україні
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Well Putin definitely isn't Mother Teresa.
 
MildSteel said:
Well Putin definitely isn't Mother Teresa.
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Then why do you defend his actions?

There are civilians starving to death in eastern Ukraine right now because of his support for the rebels that is prolonging this situation.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Then why do you defend his actions?

There are civilians starving to death in eastern Ukraine right now because of his support for the rebels that is prolonging this situation.
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I am not defending his actions. I am trying to present the situation in a clear manner so that it can be understood in proper context, not through the eyes of distorted propaganda.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
My thinking is your idea of the truth is your opinion.
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It appears from your posts that your idea of the truth is a press release from the federal government.
 
Henry David said:
It appears from your posts that your idea of the truth is a press release from the federal government.
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That is the problem. If all people hear is distorted propaganda, then they will not be able to properly question and hold into account elected officials.
 
MildSteel said:
Perhaps at this point. That might not be so in the not too distant future. Let us hope the odds get no better than they are at present.
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The GDP of Russia, before the sanctions and the drop in oil prices, was 2.097 trillion USD (2013), just slightly more than that of the State of California (1.959 trillion USD ) No doubt after sanctions, California has caught up. The GDP of the United States is 16.8 trillion USD (2013) That of the European Union is US$18.451 trillion. It seems to me that the Russians are seriously outgunned in an economic war.
 
Dittohead not! said:
The GDP of Russia, before the sanctions and the drop in oil prices, was 2.097 trillion USD (2013), just slightly more than that of the State of California (1.959 trillion USD ) No doubt after sanctions, California has caught up. The GDP of the United States is 16.8 trillion USD (2013) That of the European Union is US$18.451 trillion. It seems to me that the Russians are seriously outgunned in an economic war.
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Indeed, as they would be in a conventional war. It appears Obama meant business when he said there would be consequences for Russia. I really would not want to be in Putin's shoes right now.
 
MildSteel said:
I am not defending his actions. I am trying to present the situation in a clear manner so that it can be understood in proper context, not through the eyes of distorted propaganda.
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Oh come on! Of course you are! What is your real agenda? Where are you originally from?

You're obviously biased toward Russia.
 
Henry David said:
It appears from your posts that your idea of the truth is a press release from the federal government.
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That's better than an opinion! I'll put my government's press release up against a mobster's propoganda anyday!

And btw now people are going hungry in Russia too thanks to the short term actions of their macho leader.
 
MildSteel said:
That is the problem. If all people hear is distorted propaganda, then they will not be able to properly question and hold into account elected officials.
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You should listen to your own advice.
 
MildSteel said:
I am not defending his actions. I am trying to present the situation in a clear manner so that it can be understood in proper context, not through the eyes of distorted propaganda.
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You have no idea what distorted propaganda really is. Shortly after Maidan began in Kyiv, Russia began its comprehensive propaganda campaign. It was directed at both the Russian people and Russian-speakers in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. Radio and television propaganda nonstop. Cyber-propaganda 24/7 for digital and mobile devices. They have expanded this campaign into the Baltic States via Kaliningrad. Pro-Russia rebels are hacking NATO and Western European government websites...

German Government Websites Shut Down, Ukraine Group Claims Responsibility
 
EnigmaO01 said:
That's better than an opinion! I'll put my government's press release up against a mobster's propoganda anyday!

And btw now people are going hungry in Russia too thanks to the short term actions of their macho leader.
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Sure! It is a rational act to accept at face value the press releases from a group of known liars. Ask no questions and they will tell you no lies, right! :doh
 
Henry David said:
Sure! It is a rational act to accept at face value the press releases from a group of known liars. Ask no questions and they will tell you no lies, right! :doh
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No. It's better to listen to your own country and sort it out via a free media vs. a country which is known to control it's media and produce propoganda.

The difference between us and Russia is our media isn't mostly state run and doesn't fear reprisal if they say something unflattering about their leadership. In Russia journalists that dare to do that come up dead or missing.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
 
EnigmaO01 said:
No. It's better to listen to your own country and sort it out via a free media vs. a country which is known to control it's media and produce propoganda.

The difference between us and Russia is our media isn't mostly state run and doesn't fear reprisal if they say something unflattering about their leadership. In Russia journalists that dare to do that come up dead or missing.

List of journalists killed in Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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It seems highly likely that you do not know the difference between one's country, its government, and its media. :3oops:
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Oh come on! Of course you are! What is your real agenda? Where are you originally from?

You're obviously biased toward Russia.
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I believe people in the US tend to look at things like a US person would see how others think rather than seeing as that person sees it. There is a difference. Another thing is that it may be possible that because the US is a relatively new, collection of diverse people, it may be somewhat difficult to grasp the conception of a people, such as the Russian people, and how that group people may feel about things. Looks different when you view it in those terms.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
You should listen to your own advice.
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Perhaps you can see so clearly that you can see that. Perhaps you don't know what you are talking about. I lean towards believing the latter.
 
Simpleχity;1064168599 said:
You have no idea what distorted propaganda really is. Shortly after Maidan began in Kyiv, Russia began its comprehensive propaganda campaign. It was directed at both the Russian people and Russian-speakers in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. Radio and television propaganda nonstop. Cyber-propaganda 24/7 for digital and mobile devices. They have expanded this campaign into the Baltic States via Kaliningrad. Pro-Russia rebels are hacking NATO and Western European government websites...
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Unfortunately I do have an idea of what distorted propaganda is, and I have been victimized by it, which is one reason I don't care for it. But it is what it is, and unfortunately that is what you get these days from all sides. It has therefore become very difficult to distinguish the truth from reality. Russia will certainly lie. Of this there is no doubt. But the US will lie as well. Of this there is no doubt. So that's where we stand.
 
MildSteel said:
Unfortunately I do have an idea of what distorted propaganda is, and I have been victimized by it, which is one reason I don't care for it. But it is what it is, and unfortunately that is what you get these days from all sides. It has therefore become very difficult to distinguish the truth from reality. Russia will certainly lie. Of this there is no doubt. But the US will lie as well. Of this there is no doubt. So that's where we stand.
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You still don't understand. This was not a mild form of bias as promulgated by high-profile global outlets such as Russia Today (RT) or the New York Times. This was outright vile propaganda on a vastly different scale. It was the first time entities such as NATO were able to monitor the Russian methodology of comprehensive modern cyber-warfare and its effects on targeted populations.
 
Simpleχity;1064181975 said:
You still don't understand. This was not a mild form of bias as promulgated by high-profile global outlets such as Russia Today (RT) or the New York Times. This was outright vile propaganda on a vastly different scale. It was the first time entities such as NATO were able to monitor the Russian methodology of comprehensive modern cyber-warfare and its effects on targeted populations.
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You have no idea of the types of things I have witnessed and have had to endure in my life.
 
MildSteel said:
You have no idea of the types of things I have witnessed and have had to endure in my life.
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No, I do not. But I do know that I was in Ukraine for most of 2014 and witnessed what I speak of firsthand.
 
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