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Thread: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

  1. #51
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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadvirus View Post
    Translation: Ukraine must obey Russia
    That is not a translation, that is a gross distortion made for political purposes.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    No one claimed that. However that doesn't give Russia the right to invade another country.
    No but what you did do is frame the issue such that if Putin gets some of what he wants, it means that the US, NATO, and Ukraine are weak. And that is foolish way of viewing the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    No Putin is trying to rebuild the soviet empire and annex lands from neighboring countries.
    That is simply not true. Putin is not trying to rebuild the soviet empire nor annex lands from neighboring countries. What he was trying to do is form a Eurasian Economic Union that would rival the economic power of the US and the EU. That is for certain. But that is very different from rebuilding the Soviet Union. That is a fairy tale that has been created for political purposes. As far as annexing land goes, what happened in Crimea was predictable because it is well known it's history, that is was given to Ukraine by Russia, and that it is a vital security interest of Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    That is Putin wanting everything his way or threatening and actually invading when he doesn't get what he wants.
    That is another political statement that is in no way reflected in reality. Putin knows well he cannot get everything that he wants because he is in a weak position relative to the US. He is merely doing his best to play a weak hand. Putin knows that, and Obama knows this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Never said the USA had the right to intervene in another countries foreign policy. So you can drop that failed strawman.
    Whether you said it or not, the US does indeed intervene in the foreign policy of other countries. Russia does it as well. That is is way the world has worked for quite some time, regardless of whether there is a right to do it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    If Ukraine wants to Join NATO, it is their NATO's decision. NOT the USA's decision nor does it mean the USA is interfering with their foreign policy. Now if the USA said join NATO or we will invade (you know, the diplomatic tactics Putin is using) That would be interfering.
    If Ukraine wants to join NATO and NATO accepts that decision will likely have very grave consequences for everyone on this planet. To see how this is so, let's suppose that NATO decided it needed to put nuclear missiles aimed at Russia in Ukraine. Let's suppose that Russia said we will not permit it and will do everything in our power, including using our nuclear arsenal to prevent it. What would the US do then? That is the danger.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Why is it not fine? It is their decision not Putin's.
    I have said why it is not fine elsewhere in the thread.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    That is what Russia needs
    That is true. It is also what the US and the rest of the world needs as well.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You mean that Russia is a big threat to it? I think they might have properly grasped that perspective.
    You can look at the glass as half empty or half full. You could say Russia is a threat to Ukraine, you could say the US is a threat to Ukraine. It depends on how you look at it. You could say Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I think, as long as the relationship with Russia is so unstable, it might be smarter to have a friendship agreement with Ukraine instead. In this friendship agreement we can guarantee several things like protection during an invasion, military aid and the right of Ukrainian soldiers to train with Nato forces etc. etc. without them being actual members of Nato.

    And there can not be nuclear missiles in Ukraine, a country with such a level of instability is not a country that should be given nuclear weapons IMHO. Nuclear proliferation should be avoided IMHO.
    I think that what is going on in eastern Ukraine makes it too unstable to give any type of military guarantee. But I agree on the nuclear stuff.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    You can look at the glass as half empty or half full. You could say Russia is a threat to Ukraine, you could say the US is a threat to Ukraine. It depends on how you look at it. You could say Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place.
    Except it is not the US that has invaded Ukraine.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Except it is not the US that has invaded Ukraine.
    That is correct. However, the US can be viewed as a threat to Ukraine. Like I say, it depends on how you look at it.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Except it is not the US that has invaded Ukraine.
    Would CIA assets count? If our CIA today and yesterday is as active in Ukraine in fomenting political unrest as it was active in Iran in 1958 or Chile in fomenting dissent, could that be interpreted by the Russians as hostile actions? Guatemala in 1954? Argentina or Indonesia back in the old days?

    Can we establish a certain pattern of behavior for our favorite federal agency, the one that operates completely in the dark?

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That is correct. However, the US can be viewed as a threat to Ukraine. Like I say, it depends on how you look at it.
    I suppose, given our military power, the US could be viewed as a threat to anyone. The current threat to the Ukraine, however, is Russia.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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