Page 18 of 24 FirstFirst ... 81617181920 ... LastLast
Results 171 to 180 of 233

Thread: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

  1. #171
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    You should listen to your own advice.
    Perhaps you can see so clearly that you can see that. Perhaps you don't know what you are talking about. I lean towards believing the latter.

  2. #172
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    You have no idea what distorted propaganda really is. Shortly after Maidan began in Kyiv, Russia began its comprehensive propaganda campaign. It was directed at both the Russian people and Russian-speakers in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. Radio and television propaganda nonstop. Cyber-propaganda 24/7 for digital and mobile devices. They have expanded this campaign into the Baltic States via Kaliningrad. Pro-Russia rebels are hacking NATO and Western European government websites...
    Unfortunately I do have an idea of what distorted propaganda is, and I have been victimized by it, which is one reason I don't care for it. But it is what it is, and unfortunately that is what you get these days from all sides. It has therefore become very difficult to distinguish the truth from reality. Russia will certainly lie. Of this there is no doubt. But the US will lie as well. Of this there is no doubt. So that's where we stand.

  3. #173
    Invictus


    Rogue Valley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Last Seen
    @
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,078

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Unfortunately I do have an idea of what distorted propaganda is, and I have been victimized by it, which is one reason I don't care for it. But it is what it is, and unfortunately that is what you get these days from all sides. It has therefore become very difficult to distinguish the truth from reality. Russia will certainly lie. Of this there is no doubt. But the US will lie as well. Of this there is no doubt. So that's where we stand.
    You still don't understand. This was not a mild form of bias as promulgated by high-profile global outlets such as Russia Today (RT) or the New York Times. This was outright vile propaganda on a vastly different scale. It was the first time entities such as NATO were able to monitor the Russian methodology of comprehensive modern cyber-warfare and its effects on targeted populations.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

  4. #174
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    You still don't understand. This was not a mild form of bias as promulgated by high-profile global outlets such as Russia Today (RT) or the New York Times. This was outright vile propaganda on a vastly different scale. It was the first time entities such as NATO were able to monitor the Russian methodology of comprehensive modern cyber-warfare and its effects on targeted populations.
    You have no idea of the types of things I have witnessed and have had to endure in my life.

  5. #175
    Invictus


    Rogue Valley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Last Seen
    @
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,078

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    You have no idea of the types of things I have witnessed and have had to endure in my life.
    No, I do not. But I do know that I was in Ukraine for most of 2014 and witnessed what I speak of firsthand.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

  6. #176
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    No, I do not. But I do know that I was in Ukraine for most of 2014 and witnessed what I speak of firsthand.
    I believe you. It sounds like it is a big mess.

  7. #177
    Invictus


    Rogue Valley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Last Seen
    @
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,078

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I believe you. It sounds like it is a big mess.
    Da. It is a big mess. A mess which could perhaps be manageable if Russia departed eastern Ukraine and allowed Ukrainians the time and space to solve their issues internally. It wouldn't be easy of course, but the rebels must realize by now that Russia will not annex Donbass/Luhansk nor subsidize these regions financially (Russia has its own immense economic problems). No funding or trade is available from the international community either. This is Ukraine's "Rust Belt" that depends on coal and steel production. However, most of this industry has either been destroyed by warfare or is antiquated. Additionally, the economics of these industries is only viable if pegged to the Ukrainian hryvnia (₴). Unemployment is high as is warlordism. As it is, these breakaway "republics" cannot survive on their own. This is a human catastrophe waiting to happen unless some form of rapprochement with Ukraine is negotiated.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

  8. #178
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Da. It is a big mess. A mess which could perhaps be manageable if Russia departed eastern Ukraine and allowed Ukrainians the time and space to solve their issues internally. It wouldn't be easy of course, but the rebels must realize by now that Russia will not annex Donbass/Luhansk nor subsidize these regions financially (Russia has its own immense economic problems). No funding or trade is available from the international community either. This is Ukraine's "Rust Belt" that depends on coal and steel production. However, most of this industry has either been destroyed by warfare or is antiquated. Additionally, the economics of these industries is only viable if pegged to the Ukrainian hryvnia (₴). Unemployment is high as is warlordism. As it is, these breakaway "republics" cannot survive on their own. This is a human catastrophe waiting to happen unless some form of rapprochement with Ukraine is negotiated.
    Although I hear what you are saying with regards to Russia exiting eastern Ukraine, because Ukraine is a high vital interest of Russia, it is unrealistic to expect that they will TOTALLY do so. Over and above that even if they did, the tensions that exist between ultra-nationalist and ethnic Russians would still exist and would be a substantial obstacle to overcome, especially after all that has transpired.

  9. #179
    Invictus


    Rogue Valley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Last Seen
    @
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,078

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Although I hear what you are saying with regards to Russia exiting eastern Ukraine, because Ukraine is a high vital interest of Russia, it is unrealistic to expect that they will TOTALLY do so.
    The Russians are an occupation force on foreign soil. They must depart in order to end the crippling international sanctions and salvage their sinking economy. If they departed, I tend to think Ukraine/Russian relations could be reset and be at least amicable. To various degree, neither nation can isolate itself from the other. I understand that it is probably a shock to their national psyche, but Russia has to realistically deal with the fact that the majority of Ukrainians wish to align with the European community. They are simply fed up with Czarist/Soviet/Russian governance models. Crimea at the present time seems insolvable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Over and above that even if they did, the tensions that exist between ultra-nationalist and ethnic Russians would still exist and would be a substantial obstacle to overcome, especially after all that has transpired.
    The Ukraine government offered the rebels numerous concessions. A higher degree of regional autonomy. Language protections etc. The rebels refused everything other than outright independence. These regions cannot survive isolated from Ukraine and the world at large. Conditions are rapidly deteriorating. People are freezing and starving to death. Let the people decide if they now wish to continue down this path to catastrophe. Hold an open regional referendum under the aegis of international monitors. As it stands now, no one truly knows the majority sentiment. If the majority of the people in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions wish to continue down this road to disaster, then so be it. But this decision cannot be arrived at democratically and fairly without a total Russian withdrawal from Ukrainian territory.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

  10. #180
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    The Russians are an occupation force on foreign soil. They must depart in order to end the crippling international sanctions and salvage their sinking economy. If they departed, I tend to think Ukraine/Russian relations could be reset and be at least amicable. To various degree, neither nation can isolate itself from the other. I understand that it is probably a shock to their national psyche, but Russia has to realistically deal with the fact that the majority of Ukrainians wish to align with the European community. They are simply fed up with Czarist/Soviet/Russian governance models. Crimea at the present time seems insolvable.


    The Ukraine government offered the rebels numerous concessions. A higher degree of regional autonomy. Language protections etc. The rebels refused everything other than outright independence. These regions cannot survive isolated from Ukraine and the world at large. Conditions are rapidly deteriorating. People are freezing and starving to death. Let the people decide if they now wish to continue down this path to catastrophe. Hold an open regional referendum under the aegis of international monitors. As it stands now, no one truly knows the majority sentiment. If the majority of the people in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions wish to continue down this road to disaster, then so be it. But this decision cannot be arrived at democratically and fairly without a total Russian withdrawal from Ukrainian territory.
    My point is this, Ukraine is a vital interest of Russia, and as such, they are not going to totally withdraw from Ukraine, any more than the US will TOTALLY withdraw from the Middle East. That's just reality.

Page 18 of 24 FirstFirst ... 81617181920 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •