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Thread: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

  1. #141
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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    We may apparently be winning it now (although the low oil prices might have more to do with it than our sanctions), but it could easily backfire on us. A desperate Russia (and other blocs watching this situation develop, and unhappy about how it makes the West even more powerful) might move to further integration inside the BRICS, an alternative currency/trade system, the end of the Petrodollars monopoly, the end of the IMF monopoly, an arms race, and a more radical separation between these blocs than we've ever seen in the whole Cold War - this, if some mistake doesn't light the fuse and then all hell breaks lose.

    The main problem with this, is that people are thinking too short term. This situation is NOT GOOD. In the mid and long term, it is likely to actually become catastrophic for our interests.
    and this prediction of gloom and doom is based on what, exactly?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No. What I would say is that if the US had a base that was vital security interests that it would not sit by idly and let it happen. What would likely happen in such a scenario is that the US would overthrow the government by covert means and install someone who was willing to come to terms favorable to US military interests.
    Baloney. The US gave up its huge naval base at Subic Bay in the Philippines. The US didn't invade and annex or overthrow the Philippine government.


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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    (1) Of course the US "involved" in the Ukraine. It is in every country in the world, as is every other major nation and very many NGOs and companies in the various countries are as well. There are many reasons for this and it is good and proper.
    It is good and proper as long as it does not stretch US resources too thin and does not provoke UNNECESSARY quarrel with others. The problem is that too frequently we violate either one or both of those principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The main supporters of the demonstrators were, as far as I have been informed, not US but European. One supposedly major supporter was the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung.
    The US went way too far in it's support of the protesters. We had people like the Assistant Secretary of State fomenting street protests. We even had John McCain posing for pictures with people that are known to be radical right wing extremists that have Nazi like views.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That NGOs help people and movements to formulate their positions and organize their striving for freedom and better living conditions in autocracies does not surprise me much and I am albeit knowing the problems and implications I am not sure I would want to be stopped.
    It's ok to help people formulate opinions, but when the support rises to the level of supporting people who want to violently overthrow a democratically elected government, as was done in Venezuela, then that support goes too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That in a violent situation on the brink of war and with the primary Ukrainian ally the EU in disarray, which the EU certainly was, the US should discuss and support half way competent and less corrupt politicians than an albeit intelligent boxer and desolately corrupt old timers, seems recommendable, if not as it turned out intrusive enough to completely prevent civil war and invasion.
    The problem is that US interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine was a major factor in bringing the situation to violent point. Without the US fomenting protests and threatening people like Akhmetov, none of that would have ever gotten off the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    (2) Had Ukraine been accepted in Nato, when they requested it, Russia could have done nothing then and hardly have sent in troops now. Crimea would be part of Ukraine still. Europe and the US have done a considerable amount to ally the Russians over the last 20 years and they have been a very negative force and often destructive.
    The position that there is nothing that Russia can do about Ukraine being accepted into NATO is a fantasy. Of course Ukraine can apply for membership and of course NATO can approve it. But the cold fact of the matter is that Russia has military capabilities that can destroy the US and quite frankly, it is a big fools fantasy to think that they will not use them if they think that their vital interests are being challenged. And in the case of Ukraine, there is simply too much at stake for Russia for them to rule out that possibility. Russia could still, at the point that Ukraine was admitted into NATO say that we will not lose Crimea and simply take it over. Then what would the US do? It could either fight Russia over Crimea or let Russia keep it. If the US chose to fight Russia, Russia would then be in a position where it would have to use it's nuclear arsenal because they simply cannot win a conventional war with the US. Strategically speaking in a military sense Russia's control of Crimea gives them great leverage over Ukraine because everything that goes in and out of Ukraine has to pass by Crimea. However, Turkey is situated right at the opening to the Black Sea, and everything that goes in and out of the Black Sea must first pass by Turkey. From this position the US, with it's superior firepower, destroy Russia. Russia would then be in a position where they would have to retaliate with nuclear weapons. That is most assuredly how the whole thing would play out.

    This is one reason I say that what Obama did here, although he got the best of Putin, came at a great cost. Because now what will happen is that nations with nuclear weapons are now forced to think about how they will use them, not just to retaliate in case of a first strike, but for defensive purposes in cases where vital security interests are at stake. The fantasy is over. The reality has set in.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Their pursuit of a multi-polar structure of international security is an overriding element of their strategy, which goes far to explain their behavior.
    That is very true, and it also goes far to explain why the US has acted the way it did with regards to Ukraine because it has, temporarily at least, put up a substantial obstacle to those plans.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    PS: You really do not see the parallels between Chechenia, Serbia, Georgia, Ukraine and Syria?
    Honestly, I see very little parallel between Ukraine and Syria. Georgia perhaps, but not Syria.

  5. #145
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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    You have me all wrong. I don't believe America is saintly and our government has blood on its hands going all the way back to the genocide of the Native Americans. But we apparently agree Putin and Russia are not saints either.
    Thanks for clarifying that.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    A shooting war between US and Russia is about as likely as me winning the lottery two days in a row. No, this is an economic war, and we're winning.
    Perhaps at this point. That might not be so in the not too distant future. Let us hope the odds get no better than they are at present.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Baloney. The US gave up its huge naval base at Subic Bay in the Philippines. The US didn't invade and annex or overthrow the Philippine government.
    The base that Russia has in Crimea is the only decent naval base they have. Very different cases.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Not lately he hasn't. He's taking down the ship.
    The ship has been rendered a bit ragged, but it is not down.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The ship has been rendered a bit ragged, but it is not down.
    I did not say it's down. I said he is taking it down. As in a the Captain of a ship making bad decisions.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    I did not say it's down. I said he is taking it down. As in a the Captain of a ship making bad decisions.
    He didn't have anything buy bad choices in front of him.

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