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Thread: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Putin has been playing macho and hasn't been using his brains. He's the dumb one.
    No he's not dumb at all. What would have been dumb, at least from the point of view of Russian national interests, is for him to have sit back and do nothing while Russia is pushed into a strategic corner from which they would not be able to exit.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    In the end it's the leader that plays the long game and thinks many moves ahead that wins. That's Obama.
    Indeed, if this does not result in a military conflict between Russia and the US, then certainly Obama has come out clearly the winner in this struggle. That is one reason why I reject attempts by some to paint Obama as weak, because he does play a rather shrewd game. However, it has come at the sacrifice of some larger principles that may have grave consequences in the future, which is why I feel it was not wise relative to the larger scheme of things.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 01-05-15 at 10:26 AM.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    No one has overthrown the newly elected government.
    At least not in Kiev. In the eastern parts of Ukraine, the story is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    The demographics are indisputable.
    And the demographics indicate that there are a significant number of people in parts of Ukraine like the east and Crimea who identify themselves as ethnic Russians who prefer to be more closely connected to Russia than to Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Not in this election. Russia had already taken Crimea and conflict in the east was at its zenith with thousands dead.
    That proves nothing. It is a fact that most people voting in large national elections have a poor grasp on the issues and are merely moved by emotional propaganda that has been devised by elites to get them to vote a certain way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Yanukovych is a Slavic Benedict Arnold. He betrayed his people and decided to abdicate when he realized his Russia gambit had failed.
    Actually Yanukovich took a better offer by the Russians that included a generous loan guarantee and reduced energy prices, in contrast the EU offer contained all types of bitter economic requirements for Ukraine. My opinion is that he really wanted to play both sides against each other, but he got burned badly.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    You need to put your prejudices aside and look at the situation analyitically. If you do that Putin and Russia are in deep doo doo and Putin is the clown to the west.
    Analytically? That would require an analysis of the relationship between government and the mainstream media. That would require reading alternative news sources. Which I do.

    America is no angel, and neither is Russia.

    I suspect YOUR prejudice is that America is Saintly, or something like that. Perhaps exceptional. Any of the self-adulating terms employed by MSM.

    In reality, America kills many innocent people every month. We invade foreign countries under fraud. We invade the privacy by electronic means of nearly every person in the world.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    (1)No, it was our call to have the Assistant Secretary of State foment street protest and threaten the very influential Ukrainian oligarch Akhmetov. And while you are right, it was the EU's offer it was not entirely an EU show. Not only that but it was possible for the US to use it's considerable influence to get the EU to sweeten the offer and/or augment the offer themselves. The fact is that the US was and is very much involved in the economic and political affairs of Ukraine. Here's the Assistant Secretary of State in her own words regarding the extent of US involvement in Ukrainian efforts with regards to it's economic and political relationship with Europe:





    I think this is a gross distortion because the situation in Ukraine does not resemble Syria to any significant extent to make such a claim. Syria is not situated right on Russia's border. Syria does not have a significant population of ethnic Russians who identify with Russia. Syria does not have pipelines that carry Russian energy to customers in Europe. Syria does not manufacture parts for Russian ballistic missiles and other Russian military equipment. Therefore you cannot say that a Syria situation would have been created in Ukraine because Ukraine is very, very different from Syria in very, very substantial ways.



    That is one reason why it was wrong for the Assistant Secretary of State of the United States to be actively fomenting protest in the streets in Ukraine in the first place. At the very least, it gives the appearance that the US is willing to support violent protests meant to overthrow a democratically elected regime that does not go along with it's policies. Such instability was not something that Ukraine needed, and the people of Ukraine are suffering significantly because of it.



    (2)Bringing Ukraine into NATO back when the Bush administration would have been a catastrophic mistake. Here's what Jack Matlock, former ambassador to Russia under Ronald Reagan thinks about the idea:

    I agree with George Kennan in the strongest terms, and I hope for the sake of the human race, that such ideas will be relegated to the trash can of ridiculous ideas that should never see the light of day.
    (1) Of course the US "involved" in the Ukraine. It is in every country in the world, as is every other major nation and very many NGOs and companies in the various countries are as well. There are many reasons for this and it is good and proper.
    The main supporters of the demonstrators were, as far as I have been informed, not US but European. One supposedly major supporter was the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung. That NGOs help people and movements to formulate their positions and organize their striving for freedom and better living conditions in autocracies does not surprise me much and I am albeit knowing the problems and implications I am not sure I would want to be stopped.
    That in a violent situation on the brink of war and with the primary Ukrainian ally the EU in disarray, which the EU certainly was, the US should discuss and support half way competent and less corrupt politicians than an albeit intelligent boxer and desolately corrupt old timers, seems recommendable, if not as it turned out intrusive enough to completely prevent civil war and invasion.

    (2) Had Ukraine been accepted in Nato, when they requested it, Russia could have done nothing then and hardly have sent in troops now. Crimea would be part of Ukraine still. Europe and the US have done a considerable amount to ally the Russians over the last 20 years and they have been a very negative force and often destructive. Their pursuit of a multi-polar structure of international security is an overriding element of their strategy, which goes far to explain their behavior.


    PS: You really do not see the parallels between Chechenia, Serbia, Georgia, Ukraine and Syria?

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Russia has been in danger of losing their base at Sevastopol for quite some time. Losing it would be a very major blow to their ability to project naval power. No Russian leader worth his salt would simply sit back and do nothing while the risks of Russia losing it's base their increased.
    The US has military bases and naval ports in ~130 countries worldwide. Are you telling us that it would be okay by you for the US to invade and annex foreign territory to preserve any military base/port closures?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    At least not in Kiev. In the eastern parts of Ukraine, the story is different.
    No one knows what the true story is in eastern Ukraine because the rebels forbade the nationwide elections in regions under their military control.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    And the demographics indicate that there are a significant number of people in parts of Ukraine like the east and Crimea who identify themselves as ethnic Russians who prefer to be more closely connected to Russia than to Europe.
    Wrong. The nationwide electoral demographic information does not include the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, Crimea, and the majority of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions. The nationwide elections could not be held in these areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That proves nothing. It is a fact that most people voting in large national elections have a poor grasp on the issues and are merely moved by emotional propaganda that has been devised by elites to get them to vote a certain way.
    Please. Ukraine has everything a country needs to offer boundless election information. Over-the-air/cable/satellite television. Print media. Social media such as Facebook and Twitter. YouTube. 24/7 digital news for desktops, tablets, and mobile phones. Billboards. Town hall meetings. Televised debates. The country was in conflict and this election was by far the most important since independence. It effected every facet of their lives and livelihoods. And you somehow believe they hadn't a clue about the stakes involved?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Actually Yanukovich took a better offer by the Russians that included a generous loan guarantee and reduced energy prices, in contrast the EU offer contained all types of bitter economic requirements for Ukraine. My opinion is that he really wanted to play both sides against each other, but he got burned badly.
    After living in the Czarist and Soviet Empires, the Ukrainians have firsthand knowledge of the ball-and-chain strings that come with Russian "benevolence". They've been there and done that. They wanted a whole new approach and Yanukovych reneged on his promise to align with the European Union.


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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    And the demographics indicate that there are a significant number of people in parts of Ukraine like the east and Crimea who identify themselves as ethnic Russians who prefer to be more closely connected to Russia than to Europe.
    Then maybe they should move to Russia instead of starting a war.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    The US has military bases and naval ports in ~130 countries worldwide. Are you telling us that it would be okay by you for the US to invade and annex foreign territory to preserve any military base/port closures?
    No. What I would say is that if the US had a base that was vital security interests that it would not sit by idly and let it happen. What would likely happen in such a scenario is that the US would overthrow the government by covert means and install someone who was willing to come to terms favorable to US military interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    No one knows what the true story is in eastern Ukraine because the rebels forbade the nationwide elections in regions under their military control.
    I would not say no one knows. What we do know for certain is that there are ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who are willing to fight and give up their lives for the sake of opposing the current government in Kiev. That is fact. What is also a fact is that there is a certain segment of Ukrainian nationalists that are hostile to ethnic Russians in Ukraine. That is a fact. Therefore it would not be surprising that the population of eastern Ukraine would prefer to be more aligned with Russia than Europe.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No. What I would say is that if the US had a base that was vital security interests that it would not sit by idly and let it happen. What would likely happen in such a scenario is that the US would overthrow the government by covert means and install someone who was willing to come to terms favorable to US military interests.



    I would not say no one knows. What we do know for certain is that there are ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine who are willing to fight and give up their lives for the sake of opposing the current government in Kiev. That is fact. What is also a fact is that there is a certain segment of Ukrainian nationalists that are hostile to ethnic Russians in Ukraine. That is a fact. Therefore it would not be surprising that the population of eastern Ukraine would prefer to be more aligned with Russia than Europe.
    There are Americans who are ethnic to North America, living in France and England. Is it cool if we just overthrow their governments because they don't want to conform to the laws of the land?

    Oh wait no, that's illegal.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    There are Americans who are ethnic to North America, living in France and England. Is it cool if we just overthrow their governments because they don't want to conform to the laws of the land?

    Oh wait no, that's illegal.
    That's a very poor comparison. Was France ever a part of the United States?

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That's a very poor comparison. Was France ever a part of the United States?
    Ok there are craploads of Mexicans living in the US, should they be able to do that?
    Fact is it is the same argument Hitler used to take over Austria, the Sudetenland and western Poland and it has as much validity now as it did back then
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