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Thread: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    There is no doubt that the US shares quite a bit of the blame for what has transpired in Ukraine.
    There is no doubt that Putin is 100% responsible for what has transpired in the Ukraine.
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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    It will be interesting to see the effect this will have on the situation in eastern Ukraine. I suspect the Russians will become more aggressive there as a result. Of course it will mean Russians will play very hard ball with respect to energy supplies and Ukrainian exports to Russia. Here we go. Will Victoria Nuland go down in history as having instigated the events that led to a nuclear conflict between the US and Russia?

    Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO
    If Putin didn't want Ukraine to move towards NATO, he shouldn't have

    1. Violated Ukraine's territorial integrity by seizing Crimea
    2. Undermined Ukraine's internal stability by backing secessionist rebels in Ukraine
    3. Supported Yanukovych, who was so corrupt that even pro-Russian Ukrainians despised him.

    Russia behaving aggressively towards Ukraine is a surefire way to make Ukraine (as your link says, a previously nonaligned nation) attempt to ally itself with NATO.

    Any direct conflict between the United States and Russia is highly unlikely, since there is no way that Putin can win (even in a nuclear conflict) unless he somehow allies with China against the US. NATO would smash Russia in any conventional war, and nuclear war would lead to the wholesale slaughter of both countries and isn't really in anyone's interest. The West had been infinitely more bold in attempting to undermine the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and nuclear conflict never occurred; it's unlikely that handing out cookies at a protest will cause a non-superpower to decide to go to war in this day and age.
    Last edited by MadLib; 01-04-15 at 03:55 PM.
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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    If Putin didn't want Ukraine to move towards NATO, he shouldn't have

    1. Violated Ukraine's territorial integrity by seizing Crimea
    2. Undermined Ukraine's internal stability by backing secessionist rebels in Ukraine
    3. Supported Yanukovych, who was so corrupt that even pro-Russian Ukrainians despised him.
    Wrong. NATO membership for Ukraine was supported by the Bush administration and has been supported by prominent people in the US foreign policy establishment for well before the three things ever happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Russia behaving aggressively towards Ukraine is a surefire way to make Ukraine (as your link says, a previously nonaligned nation) attempt to ally itself with NATO.
    Russia is forced to be aggressive towards Ukraine because it is right on their border, because of the military significance of Crimea to Russian defense, and because it is a crucial point of transit for Russian energy supplies to Europe. It is a vital interest for Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Any direct conflict between the United States and Russia is highly unlikely, since there is no way that Putin can win (even in a nuclear conflict) unless he somehow allies with China against the US. NATO would smash Russia in any conventional war, and nuclear war would lead to the wholesale slaughter of both countries and isn't really in anyone's interest. The West had been infinitely more bold in attempting to undermine the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and nuclear conflict never occurred; it's unlikely that handing out cookies at a protest will cause a non-superpower to decide to go to war in this day and age.
    The problem with your position is that it brushes aside the fact that Russia has the ability to destroy the United States, and that if pushed far enough, it is likely that they would consider using their nuclear weapons, because, as you have said, they cannot win a conventional war with the United States.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Wrong. NATO membership for Ukraine was supported by the Bush administration and has been supported by prominent people in the US foreign policy establishment for well before the three things ever happened.
    That doesn't mean that caused Ukraine's move towards NATO. Russian acts of aggression are far more significant than internal US policy maneuverings and Nuland handing out cookies.

    Russia is forced to be aggressive towards Ukraine because it is right on their border, because of the military significance of Crimea to Russian defense, and because it is a crucial point of transit for Russian energy supplies to Europe. It is a vital interest for Russia.
    Are you saying that this was the only way Moscow could have handled it? They couldn't have just fortified their base in Sevastopol? They couldn't have offered Ukraine a better economic option to compete with the EU?

    If that's how the Russians (incorrectly) feel about it, then they shouldn't be shocked and upset when Ukraine moves towards an anti-Russian defensive alliance as a natural consequence of their behavior.

    The problem with your position is that it brushes aside the fact that Russia has the ability to destroy the United States, and that if pushed far enough, it is likely that they would consider using their nuclear weapons, because, as you have said, they cannot win a conventional war with the United States.
    The US also has the same ability to destroy the United States, as well as (if I recall correctly) anti-ballistic missiles. I highly dislike Putin, but I know that he's far too rational to think that a nuclear conflict will produce good results for anyone. If some crazy hardliner came into power, that would be a different story.
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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No that is not true. The US has overthrown democratically elected leaders in many countries that it was not satisfied with. So you are wrong.
    No one has overthrown the newly elected government.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Maps don't demonstrate anything. It's people with power who tell people what to think that determine the scale of sentiment in political contests.
    The demographics are indisputable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The point is this, most people everywhere, in any substantial political contest, have a very poor grasp on the issues at stake. That is true of the leaders, what to speak of the people who elect them.
    Not in this election. Russia had already taken Crimea and conflict in the east was at its zenith with thousands dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Yanukovich was elected democratically. I didn't mean diddly squat at the end of the day.
    Yanukovych is a Slavic Benedict Arnold. He betrayed his people and decided to abdicate when he realized his Russia gambit had failed.


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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    You are right. Obama did get the best of Putin with regards to Ukraine, IF THIS DOESN'T LEAD TO A MILITARY CONFLICT BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE US. In that case no one wins. But it was not much Putin could do. He is just in a weak position relative to the US. He has done a rather good job playing a poor hand.
    Good job? The guy is a hood.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I suppose the depends upon the company one keeps, eh? Though I'm not sure whether Obama is perceived more as a clown, or more as a criminal hypocrite who happens to be a Nobel recipient.
    You need to put your prejudices aside and look at the situation analyitically. If you do that Putin and Russia are in deep doo doo and Putin is the clown to the west.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Smart in a very restricted sense. It has come at far too great a price for what was accomplished. That being the case, it was not a smart move at all, at least not in the grand scheme of things.
    Putin has been playing macho and hasn't been using his brains. He's the dumb one.

    In the end it's the leader that plays the long game and thinks many moves ahead that wins. That's Obama.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    That doesn't mean that caused Ukraine's move towards NATO.
    You need to keep track of the conversation because that was not the point. The point is that there were attempts to bring Ukraine into NATO long before the three things that you listed happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Russian acts of aggression are far more significant than internal US policy maneuverings and Nuland handing out cookies.
    What is that supposed to mean? Again the acts of aggression that you cited took place long after attempts were made to bring Ukraine into NATO.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Are you saying that this was the only way Moscow could have handled it?
    Didn't say that. Russia could have done nothing. As far as what could be done, they could offer to become a protectorate of the US. What you have posted makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    They couldn't have just fortified their base in Sevastopol?
    Russia has been in danger of losing their base at Sevastopol for quite some time. Losing it would be a very major blow to their ability to project naval power. No Russian leader worth his salt would simply sit back and do nothing while the risks of Russia losing it's base their increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    They couldn't have offered Ukraine a better economic option to compete with the EU?
    The fact that you have asked that question indicates that you have not been following the events that have transpired in Ukraine since the fall of 2013. In fact, Russia did just that, and Yanukovich accepted Russia's better offer which had some very sweet terms for Ukraine relative to the EU offer. That's what triggered Nuland fomenting protests and threatening Akhmetov, which in turn led to the overthrow of Yanukovich.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    If that's how the Russians (incorrectly) feel about it, then they shouldn't be shocked and upset when Ukraine moves towards an anti-Russian defensive alliance as a natural consequence of their behavior.
    Again, that is something that has been attempted long before the aggression that you cited. Therefore your point is very weak at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    The US also has the same ability to destroy the United States, as well as (if I recall correctly) anti-ballistic missiles.
    You mean the US has the capability to destroy Russia. That is true, however we should be very careful about trampling on the vital interests of a country that does indeed in truth, have the capability to destroy the US. That is the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I highly dislike Putin, but I know that he's far too rational to think that a nuclear conflict will produce good results for anyone. If some crazy hardliner came into power, that would be a different story.
    Putin, Obama, Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush, and any other leader of a country will do anything in their power, included using nuclear weapons, to protect the essential vital interests of their country. For the Russian nation, Ukraine falls into that category. Therefore the US should be very careful with how it executes it's policy there because the consequences of mistakes could be very catastrophic.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Good job? The guy is a hood.
    He has done a good job playing a poor hand from the point of view of Russian national interests.

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