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Thread: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I disagree with you. Although the US does not bear the sole responsibility, it does bear a substantial portion of the blame for the situation that currently exists in Ukraine. There is no hidden agenda. I am stating openly what I believe to be the truth.
    You mean the US should have prevented the European Union from forcing the issue on the the trade treaty with its slippery military clause? Or we should not support groups that want more freedom and less corruption? Or you find we should not have helped the allies, when the population stood up? Or do you mean, we should have gotten involved earlier to prevent the incompetent EU people from driving the situation into chaos with their untimely power grab?

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You mean the US should have prevented the European Union from forcing the issue on the the trade treaty with its slippery military clause? Or we should not support groups that want more freedom and less corruption? Or you find we should not have helped the allies, when the population stood up? Or do you mean, we should have gotten involved earlier to prevent the incompetent EU people from driving the situation into chaos with their untimely power grab?
    What I mean is that in response to Yanukovich accepting an offer from the Russians, it was wrong for the Assistant Secretary of State to directly foment protests in the streets and threaten people with political power in Ukraine to make them withdraw their support of Yanukovich. What we should have done is to make a better offer.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Might be a smart move. Russia's financial situation may keep Putin preoccupied and also not leave him the resources to retaliate.
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    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Joining NATO COULD mean that nukes could be indeed placed on Russia's front door.
    Unlikely. NATO wants to defuse the situation...not make it worse.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadvirus View Post
    Unlikely. NATO wants to defuse the situation...not make it worse.
    You are right it is unlikely because there will not be any NATO membership for Ukraine in the short term. And that is a result, as you have indicated, of NATO, in reality and wisely I might add, not wanting to make the situation worse than it is. But that is not to say that there very well be NATO membership for Ukraine in not the far too distant future. Which means that one cannot rule out the scenario that I mentioned.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    What I mean is that in response to Yanukovich accepting an offer from the Russians, it was wrong for the Assistant Secretary of State to directly foment protests in the streets and threaten people with political power in Ukraine to make them withdraw their support of Yanukovich. What we should have done is to make a better offer.
    That was not our call. It was the EU's offer and their show. The US only assisted until internal European bickering threatened to recreate a Syria situation. Circumstances had deteriorated so far, however, that the demonstrations were turning into a battlefield. It is more or less a Yugoslavian rerun. The EU acts an causes a mess and the US gets involved, when the weapons are already in use. If you want to point at American failure here, it is in the fact that the US did not overcome German foot dragging a decade ago and bring Ukraine into Nato. That was a mistake. But it was the mistake of believing that the European theatre should and could be handled by the Europeans. It was the bane of non-involvement.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadvirus View Post
    Unlikely. NATO wants to defuse the situation...not make it worse.
    That is debatable for sure. Seems to me that NATO & Friends are provoking things.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That was not our call. It was the EU's offer and their show.
    No, it was our call to have the Assistant Secretary of State foment street protest and threaten the very influential Ukrainian oligarch Akhmetov. And while you are right, it was the EU's offer it was not entirely an EU show. Not only that but it was possible for the US to use it's considerable influence to get the EU to sweeten the offer and/or augment the offer themselves. The fact is that the US was and is very much involved in the economic and political affairs of Ukraine. Here's the Assistant Secretary of State in her own words regarding the extent of US involvement in Ukrainian efforts with regards to it's economic and political relationship with Europe:



    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The US only assisted until internal European bickering threatened to recreate a Syria situation.
    I think this is a gross distortion because the situation in Ukraine does not resemble Syria to any significant extent to make such a claim. Syria is not situated right on Russia's border. Syria does not have a significant population of ethnic Russians who identify with Russia. Syria does not have pipelines that carry Russian energy to customers in Europe. Syria does not manufacture parts for Russian ballistic missiles and other Russian military equipment. Therefore you cannot say that a Syria situation would have been created in Ukraine because Ukraine is very, very different from Syria in very, very substantial ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Circumstances had deteriorated so far, however, that the demonstrations were turning into a battlefield.
    That is one reason why it was wrong for the Assistant Secretary of State of the United States to be actively fomenting protest in the streets in Ukraine in the first place. At the very least, it gives the appearance that the US is willing to support violent protests meant to overthrow a democratically elected regime that does not go along with it's policies. Such instability was not something that Ukraine needed, and the people of Ukraine are suffering significantly because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    It is more or less a Yugoslavian rerun. The EU acts an causes a mess and the US gets involved, when the weapons are already in use. If you want to point at American failure here, it is in the fact that the US did not overcome German foot dragging a decade ago and bring Ukraine into Nato. That was a mistake. But it was the mistake of believing that the European theatre should and could be handled by the Europeans. It was the bane of non-involvement.
    Bringing Ukraine into NATO back when the Bush administration would have been a catastrophic mistake. Here's what Jack Matlock, former ambassador to Russia under Ronald Reagan thinks about the idea:

    And I think we have to understand that when we start directly interfering, particularly our government officials, in the internal makeup of other governments, we’re really asking for trouble.

    And, you know, we were pretty careful not to do that in my day. And I recall, for example, when I was being consulted by the newly elected leaders of what was still Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania. They were still in the Soviet Union, and they would come to us. We were, of course, sympathetic to their independence; we had never even recognized that they were legally part of the Soviet Union. But I had to tell them, "Keep it peaceful. If you are suppressed, there’s nothing we can do about it. We cannot come and help you. We’re not going to start a nuclear war." Well, they kept it peaceful, despite provocations.

    Now, what have we been telling the Ukrainians, the Georgians—at least some of us, officials? "Just hold on. You can join NATO, and that will solve your problems for you." You know, and yet, it is that very prospect, that the United States and its European allies were trying to surround Russia with hostile bases, that has raised the emotional temperature of all these things. And that was a huge mistake. As George Kennan wrote back in the ’90s when this question came up, the decision to expand NATO the way it was done was one of the most fateful and bad decisions of the late 20th century.
    I agree with George Kennan in the strongest terms, and I hope for the sake of the human race, that such ideas will be relegated to the trash can of ridiculous ideas that should never see the light of day.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    That is debatable for sure. Seems to me that NATO & Friends are provoking things.
    NATO & Friends weren't the ones who started this mess.

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    Re: Outraging Russia, Ukraine takes big step toward NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadvirus View Post
    NATO & Friends weren't the ones who started this mess.
    Well it boils down to some kind of arrangement made back in the day where NATO promised the soviet union that it would go east of germany. I believe its nato's current contention that that arrangement was with the now defunct soviet union and not russia. A lot of little kinks here to iron out.
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