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Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

Hm. And should unintelligent humans and other animals be treated inhumanely?


She's a she actually. It will matter to her because her quality of life could be drastically improved if the ruling isn't appealed.


Why?

Unintelligent animals should be accorded a different standard of treatment than intelligent ones. 'She' doesn't care about the hearing because she isn't aware of the hearing or what it means. Caring about something requires awareness of it and the ability to understand it. As for why I'm not going to pay attention to Argentina it's because it's a crappy country with a dysfunctional legal and political system that no one will pay any attention to.
 
Orangutans are not flies. They are intelligent, self-aware, great apes that are capable of empathy and mourn the deaths of their friends. Very few animals possess those qualities, namely the great apes (Humans, Chimps, Bonobos, Orangatans, and Gorillas), dolphins and some whales, and elephants. An Orangutan has the intelligence and emotional ability of a 4 year old child. Why on earth would we not give them some legal protections that go beyond what we would grant a lab rat?
 
Well it's good to see so much support, but I have to say that this value being placed upon "intelligence" makes me uncomfortable. Even the "less than intelligent" do not deserve what these animals are forced to endure. Do you apply this thinking to human beings as well?

I also hope that we will not suddenly venture down the dark road of utilitarianism and suddenly claim that these animal's rights should be taken away only if they're being tested on in a laboratory.

Even as a supporter of primate rights I support medical experimentation if it's absolutely necessary. I'm willing to sacrifice their rights and/or desires for the betterment of my species.
 
2. Ya, it does actually.
Explain why.

3. Flies protect their own well-being as well. And rich seems an excessively vague term.

Sentient: able to perceive or feel things

This clearly includes flies.

Now if you would, please identify a specific difference, and explain why this should grant one rights and not the other.
As I said, none of this has been conclusively proven. It is not "clear" that flies are able to experience anything, but it certainly is a possibility.
 
Even as a supporter of primate rights I support medical experimentation if it's absolutely necessary. I'm willing to sacrifice their rights and/or desires for the betterment of my species.

It's not medical experimentation anyway that is the huge threat to orangutans, its the wholesale destruction of their habitat to create more and more palm oil plantations that could very well bring about their extinction.
 
It's not medical experimentation anyway that is the huge threat to orangutans, its the wholesale destruction of their habitat to create more and more palm oil plantations that could very well bring about their extinction.

A very good point.
 
You ask a ridiculous question, and you'll get a ridiculous answer. I'd love to hear your potentially rational thoughts on why this ruling is so absurd you.

It is just an animal, a piece of property. To be treated humanely, because we, as a society, demand that. But, still an animal with no rights.
 
Explain why.


As I said, none of this has been conclusively proven. It is not "clear" that flies are able to experience anything, but it certainly is a possibility.

2. The universal opinion of all legal systems deserves the benefit of presumption.

3. Swat a fly. See how it reacts. Thus it is proven.
 
It is just an animal, a piece of property. To be treated humanely, because we, as a society, demand that. But, still an animal with no rights.

Rights are a human construct. You and I have rights because society has long since determined that we have them. If society determines an orangutan has some basic rights, then they have them.
 
Well it's good to see so much support, but I have to say that this value being placed upon "intelligence" makes me uncomfortable. Even the "less than intelligent" do not deserve what these animals are forced to endure. Do you apply this thinking to human beings as well?

I also hope that we will not suddenly venture down the dark road of utilitarianism and suddenly claim that these animal's rights should be taken away only if they're being tested on in a laboratory.

Well, people have different thresholds for stuff. While I respect and understand others' thresholds, mine might differ. Personally, I do value intelligence as a criterion. I think a line must be drawn somewhere. If we were to consider 100% of the animal kingdom forbidden territory for killing them and eating them, we'd probably starve at least temporarily, since it would be difficult to replace animal protein in industrial scale to feed the huge human population in this planet. Even if we were able to replace it with 100% vegetable products, the process of planting/harvesting vegetables also kills animals, such as worms and field mice. So, I think we can't be entirely radical about it and go for some sort of blanket prohibition of any harm done to animals. Nature does have a food chain and animals themselves kill other animals in order to eat.

Most people except the most pathological sociopaths, callous murderers, extremists such as ISIS, or evil dictators, believe that killing a human being is wrong. Most people think that killing most animals (at least for food; some would include hunting or fishing for sport) is not wrong. In between, people will have a spectrum of opinions. Mine happens to draw the line at high intelligence. While I have no problem with killing and eating a chicken, I'd be quite upset at, for example, hunting an orangutan for sport.

Now, am I implying that the less intelligent human beings should be less protected than the more intelligent ones? Not at all. Even retarded human beings have a sense of self and are clearly sentient creatures (except for the very severely retarded, severely brain-damaged, vegetative ones), so, no, I'm not advocating for any kind of eugenics or attribution of higher grade rights for more intelligent humans as compared to mentally retarded ones.

What I'm saying is that humans of all levels of intelligence AND some of the highly intelligent animal species (dolphins, certain species of whales, great apes and other primates, pigs, elephants, and maybe a few others - dogs might be a borderline case, and some studies even quote others like crows, squirrels, and even octopuses as very sentient although I'm not sure I'd go that far), should enjoy rights and protections beyond simply banning cruelty.

So, beating and torturing a dog is a felony in the United States based on cruelty laws, but raising pigs in extremely cruel conditions and butchering them in graphic ways is considered to be perfectly normal, in spite of the fact that pigs are demonstrably much more intelligent than dogs (for example, they can play videogames, understand mirrors, know about what being killed means - and get very distressed while anticipating it, are able to differentiate other pigs individually, etc., way beyond what dogs can do). I think this makes no sense (that is, severely restrict any cruelty against dogs while allowing pigs to be treated in all sorts of despicable manners). I'd go with intelligence first, as a criterion. I'd want all senseless cruelty against animals (any animals) to be be banned and a felony, but I'd only grant personhood and the additional rights that would come with it, to the highly intelligent species, because I think granting personhood to ALL species would be a gross exaggeration. I mean, I don't think that cooking shrimp is a horrible example of animal cruelty and I don't think I'm eating people when I eat shrimp.

Now, do I eat pork? Oh well, I do. I know I'm being contradictory, but I'm just a flawed human being and sometimes I'm not 100% coherent, go figure. But I do have a little pang of guilt when I think about it. I think I *shouldn't* eat pork, but I haven't been able to walk that step, yet. It probably has to do with how used we all are to the idea that pigs are livestock. Cows, however, I consider to be quite stupid, and the same applies to chicken and fish. I have no pangs of guilt when I eat beef, chicken, or fish.

That's my personal opinion and I hope the above is helpful in clarifying it, and I'm ready to respect other people's opinions. I draw the line not as high as those who think only humans should be granted personhood, but not as low as those who want to include all animals.
 
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Rights are a human construct. You and I have rights because society has long since determined that we have them. If society determines an orangutan has some basic rights, then they have them.

Yes, we can give rights to frogs if we want also. But, when we start going to court and giving animals rights, well, that's just stupid.
 
3. Swat a fly. See how it reacts. Thus it is proven.

I'd call the fly's reaction just a reflex. I do not believe the fly has a consciousness of self, understands its individually, has the capacity to mourn loved ones, etc., which are all capacities that orangutans have. Granting to flies the same rights being considered here for orangutans is what I'd call a hugely absurd idea.
 
It is just an animal, a piece of property. To be treated humanely, because we, as a society, demand that. But, still an animal with no rights.

No-one and nothing has any inherent rights. What is being discussed is precisely that, namely, whether or not certain types of animals should be granted unique rights relative to other animals.
 
I'd call the fly's reaction just a reflex. I do not believe the fly has a consciousness of self, understands its individually, has the capacity to mourn loved ones, etc., which are all capacities that orangutans have. Granting to flies the same rights being considered here for orangutans is what I'd call a hugely absurd idea.

The fly most certainly us conscious. It processes the object approaching it and flees. And Orangoutangs don't understand the concept of self.
 
The fly most certainly us conscious. It processes the object approaching it and flees. And Orangoutangs don't understand the concept of self.

I disagree with both your ideas here. I believe the "processing" you are attributing to the fly is as much a reflex as taking out your hand if you touch a hot surface.

As for sense of self in orangutans, read this:

Orangutan Intelligence and Mental Life

Orangutans in laboratory situations have learned sign language about as fast and effectively as their gorilla and chimpanzee counterparts. They were able to identify objects, answer questions and explain what they wanted to eat. When orangutans in the wild encounter humans for the first time they tend to drop branches on them, smack their lips loudly and make other vocalizations.

Orangutans show cognitive complexity and flexibility rivaling that of chimps and maintain cultural traditions in the wild. "Azy has a rich mental life," Rob Shumaker told National Geographic of his study subject and friend of 25 years. "Orangutans are on equal cognitive footing with African apes, or even surpass them on some tasks."

Jennifer Holland wrote in National Geographic: “Not only does Azy communicate his thoughts with abstract keyboard symbols, he also demonstrates a "theory of mind" (understanding another individual's perspective) and makes logical, thoughtful choices that show a mental flexibility some chimpanzees lack. In the wild, orangutans keep innovative cultural traditions: Some groups construct foraging tools for extracting insects from tree holes; others use leaves as rain hats or napkins, wad them up as pillows, or line their hands with them when climbing a spiky tree. And in rare instances orangutans will twist leaves into bundles and cradle them like dolls. [Source: National Geographic , March 2008]

http://factsanddetails.com/asian/cat68/sub430/item2476.html
 
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I disagree with both your ideas here. I believe the "processing" you are attributing to the fly is as much a reflex as taking out your hand if you touch a hot surface.

As for sense of self in orangutans, read this:

Orangutan Intelligence and Mental Life

Orangutans in laboratory situations have learned sign language about as fast and effectively as their gorilla and chimpanzee counterparts. They were able to identify objects, answer questions and explain what they wanted to eat. When orangutans in the wild encounter humans for the first time they tend to drop branches on them, smack their lips loudly and make other vocalizations.

Orangutans show cognitive complexity and flexibility rivaling that of chimps and maintain cultural traditions in the wild. "Azy has a rich mental life," Rob Shumaker told National Geographic of his study subject and friend of 25 years. "Orangutans are on equal cognitive footing with African apes, or even surpass them on some tasks."

Jennifer Holland wrote in National Geographic: “Not only does Azy communicate his thoughts with abstract keyboard symbols, he also demonstrates a "theory of mind" (understanding another individual's perspective) and makes logical, thoughtful choices that show a mental flexibility some chimpanzees lack. In the wild, orangutans keep innovative cultural traditions: Some groups construct foraging tools for extracting insects from tree holes; others use leaves as rain hats or napkins, wad them up as pillows, or line their hands with them when climbing a spiky tree. And in rare instances orangutans will twist leaves into bundles and cradle them like dolls. [Source: National Geographic , March 2008]

ORANGUTANS, INTELLIGENCE AND HUMANS | Facts and Details

Whether you want to call it a reflex or not, pain and sight reflexes, if the latter exist, are dependent on consciousness.

And how does the researcher know that?
 
BBC News - Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan


I'm uncertain as to whether this is a first, but it's certainly significant nonetheless! Of course, it could be appealed, but I see this as a step forward in the fight to recognize that it is not only humans that can be accurately regarded as "persons" or as beings that desire freedom and to be free from harm!

Animals will never be anything close to people, and have no business sharing human rights, period.

Respect yes, but not human rights.
 
Whether you want to call it a reflex or not, pain and sight reflexes, if the latter exist, are dependent on consciousness.

And how does the researcher know that?

1. I don't know where you got this notion. Reflexes are processed in more primitive parts of the brain, nothing to do with the superior, consciousness-defining parts.
2. Ask the researcher.
 
1. I don't know where you got this notion. Reflexes are processed in more primitive parts of the brain, nothing to do with the superior, consciousness-defining parts.
2. Ask the researcher.

1. Reality. The fact that people disabled from consciously experiencing pain lack such reflexes.
2. It's his burden to establish how he could know such a thing.
 
Whether you want to call it a reflex or not, pain and sight reflexes, if the latter exist, are dependent on consciousness.

And how does the researcher know that?

Why, I do not even know that these things apply to you. ;)
 
No-one and nothing has any inherent rights. What is being discussed is precisely that, namely, whether or not certain types of animals should be granted unique rights relative to other animals.

Well, we have our basic God given rights. The animals, really no rights at all.
 
Even as a supporter of primate rights I support medical experimentation if it's absolutely necessary. I'm willing to sacrifice their rights and/or desires for the betterment of my species.

We do experimentation on humans, too, though with their consent. With the greater intelligence attributes that primates have, doing experimentation on them (regardless of whether they are capable of the sort of abstract reasoning that would allow them to understand and consent to such experimentation) is unethical.
 
BBC News - Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan


I'm uncertain as to whether this is a first, but it's certainly significant nonetheless! Of course, it could be appealed, but I see this as a step forward in the fight to recognize that it is not only humans that can be accurately regarded as "persons" or as beings that desire freedom and to be free from harm!

And, in other news, the orangutan will be replacing Bill O'Reilly on FOX News. :mrgreen:
 
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