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Thread: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    I disagree with both your ideas here. I believe the "processing" you are attributing to the fly is as much a reflex as taking out your hand if you touch a hot surface.

    As for sense of self in orangutans, read this:

    Orangutan Intelligence and Mental Life

    Orangutans in laboratory situations have learned sign language about as fast and effectively as their gorilla and chimpanzee counterparts. They were able to identify objects, answer questions and explain what they wanted to eat. When orangutans in the wild encounter humans for the first time they tend to drop branches on them, smack their lips loudly and make other vocalizations.

    Orangutans show cognitive complexity and flexibility rivaling that of chimps and maintain cultural traditions in the wild. "Azy has a rich mental life," Rob Shumaker told National Geographic of his study subject and friend of 25 years. "Orangutans are on equal cognitive footing with African apes, or even surpass them on some tasks."

    Jennifer Holland wrote in National Geographic: “Not only does Azy communicate his thoughts with abstract keyboard symbols, he also demonstrates a "theory of mind" (understanding another individual's perspective) and makes logical, thoughtful choices that show a mental flexibility some chimpanzees lack. In the wild, orangutans keep innovative cultural traditions: Some groups construct foraging tools for extracting insects from tree holes; others use leaves as rain hats or napkins, wad them up as pillows, or line their hands with them when climbing a spiky tree. And in rare instances orangutans will twist leaves into bundles and cradle them like dolls. [Source: National Geographic , March 2008]

    ORANGUTANS, INTELLIGENCE AND HUMANS | Facts and Details
    Whether you want to call it a reflex or not, pain and sight reflexes, if the latter exist, are dependent on consciousness.

    And how does the researcher know that?

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother AJ View Post
    BBC News - Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan


    I'm uncertain as to whether this is a first, but it's certainly significant nonetheless! Of course, it could be appealed, but I see this as a step forward in the fight to recognize that it is not only humans that can be accurately regarded as "persons" or as beings that desire freedom and to be free from harm!
    Animals will never be anything close to people, and have no business sharing human rights, period.

    Respect yes, but not human rights.
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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Whether you want to call it a reflex or not, pain and sight reflexes, if the latter exist, are dependent on consciousness.

    And how does the researcher know that?
    1. I don't know where you got this notion. Reflexes are processed in more primitive parts of the brain, nothing to do with the superior, consciousness-defining parts.
    2. Ask the researcher.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    1. I don't know where you got this notion. Reflexes are processed in more primitive parts of the brain, nothing to do with the superior, consciousness-defining parts.
    2. Ask the researcher.
    1. Reality. The fact that people disabled from consciously experiencing pain lack such reflexes.
    2. It's his burden to establish how he could know such a thing.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Whether you want to call it a reflex or not, pain and sight reflexes, if the latter exist, are dependent on consciousness.

    And how does the researcher know that?
    Why, I do not even know that these things apply to you.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    No-one and nothing has any inherent rights. What is being discussed is precisely that, namely, whether or not certain types of animals should be granted unique rights relative to other animals.
    Well, we have our basic God given rights. The animals, really no rights at all.
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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    Well, we have our basic God given rights. The animals, really no rights at all.
    They have the right to be slow and tasty.
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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Even as a supporter of primate rights I support medical experimentation if it's absolutely necessary. I'm willing to sacrifice their rights and/or desires for the betterment of my species.
    We do experimentation on humans, too, though with their consent. With the greater intelligence attributes that primates have, doing experimentation on them (regardless of whether they are capable of the sort of abstract reasoning that would allow them to understand and consent to such experimentation) is unethical.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother AJ View Post
    BBC News - Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan


    I'm uncertain as to whether this is a first, but it's certainly significant nonetheless! Of course, it could be appealed, but I see this as a step forward in the fight to recognize that it is not only humans that can be accurately regarded as "persons" or as beings that desire freedom and to be free from harm!
    And, in other news, the orangutan will be replacing Bill O'Reilly on FOX News.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    And, in other news, the orangutan will be replacing Bill O'Reilly on FOX News.
    I'd so support that move.

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