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Thread: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    2. Semantics
    Not in the eyes of the law. It's important to state the difference because people such as yourself like to paint this issue with an absurd brush and claim we advocate awarding other animals "human rights". They aren't human, but doesn't mean they can't be a person.

    3. Such as?
    Er... you mean besides the obvious? It's easily demonstrable that orangutans live rich emotional lives and care about their own well being. This isn't as simple to prove when it comes to flies. Not to say that it's impossible, but it's clearly an issue that doesn't need to be addressed every time we concern ourselves with the rights of beings that are clearly sentient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    This is hardly unprecedented. Animal cruelty is a crime in many countries, including the United States. We afford many animals a right against violence and neglect.
    Animal cruelty laws do not indicate that we see other animals as persons or right's holders. Legally, they are still chattel property.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother AJ View Post
    BBC News - Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan


    I'm uncertain as to whether this is a first, but it's certainly significant nonetheless! Of course, it could be appealed, but I see this as a step forward in the fight to recognize that it is not only humans that can be accurately regarded as "persons" or as beings that desire freedom and to be free from harm!
    Good. Primates have intelligence that places them well above other animals and it's about time they get basic rights.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    This is not a first. A court in a semi-autonomous island that is part of Spain has ruled similarly in the past. I don't remember which island; maybe Minorca. I don't have a link; I read this news a while ago. Basically they recognized primates as persons, granted them a number of personhood rights, and made killing a primate a felony similar to killing a human (but punished with smaller sentences).

    I believe it is a scientific fact (as confirmed by a panel of scientists from Oxford University) that many animal species are sentient. The Oxford panel included many species; I'd probably be a little more restrictive and consider as such only the highly intelligent ones like the great apes, the dolphins, and let's not forget the pigs (it is a poorly known fact that pigs are highly intelligent, much more than dogs and cats). Those species whose individuals have a sense of self, understand their destiny, anticipate their demise with anguish, have a concept of families and loved ones, have some sort of rudimentary language or the ability to learn one, etc., as it's been proven about a few animal species, should enjoy some protections under the law. It would be the humane thing to do.

    Animal cruelty of any kind is despicable, however I don't think that considering very unsophisticated animals such as fish and chicken as livestock, harvested or raised for human consumption, is particularly wrong; hopefully more humane methods for raising and killing them should be employed; I'm no vegetarian, much less vegan. I love meat.

    The highly intelligent ones, though, I'd be a lot more sympathetic towards them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Good. Primates have intelligence that places them well above other animals and it's about time they get basic rights.
    Well it's good to see so much support, but I have to say that this value being placed upon "intelligence" makes me uncomfortable. Even the "less than intelligent" do not deserve what these animals are forced to endure. Do you apply this thinking to human beings as well?

    I also hope that we will not suddenly venture down the dark road of utilitarianism and suddenly claim that these animal's rights should be taken away only if they're being tested on in a laboratory.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother AJ View Post
    Well it's good to see so much support, but I have to say that this value being placed upon "intelligence" makes me uncomfortable. Even the "less than intelligent" do not deserve what these animals are forced to endure. Do you apply this thinking to human beings as well?

    I also hope that we will not suddenly venture down the dark road of utilitarianism and suddenly claim that these animal's rights should be taken away only if they're being tested on in a laboratory.
    It's more than just crude intelligence, and I've made the argument supporting a wide range of attributes of primates that place them on a unique tier. If you want I can dig up that post again.

    Found it:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1063845633

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother AJ View Post
    Not in the eyes of the law. It's important to state the difference because people such as yourself like to paint this issue with an absurd brush and claim we advocate awarding other animals "human rights". They aren't human, but doesn't mean they can't be a person.


    Er... you mean besides the obvious? It's easily demonstrable that orangutans live rich emotional lives and care about their own well being. This isn't as simple to prove when it comes to flies. Not to say that it's impossible, but it's clearly an issue that doesn't need to be addressed every time we concern ourselves with the rights of beings that are clearly sentient.


    Animal cruelty laws do not indicate that we see other animals as persons or right's holders. Legally, they are still chattel property.
    2. Ya, it does actually.

    3. Flies protect their own well-being as well. And rich seems an excessively vague term.

    Sentient: able to perceive or feel things

    This clearly includes flies.

    Now if you would, please identify a specific difference, and explain why this should grant one rights and not the other.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother AJ View Post
    Hm. And should unintelligent humans and other animals be treated inhumanely?


    She's a she actually. It will matter to her because her quality of life could be drastically improved if the ruling isn't appealed.


    Why?
    Unintelligent animals should be accorded a different standard of treatment than intelligent ones. 'She' doesn't care about the hearing because she isn't aware of the hearing or what it means. Caring about something requires awareness of it and the ability to understand it. As for why I'm not going to pay attention to Argentina it's because it's a crappy country with a dysfunctional legal and political system that no one will pay any attention to.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Orangutans are not flies. They are intelligent, self-aware, great apes that are capable of empathy and mourn the deaths of their friends. Very few animals possess those qualities, namely the great apes (Humans, Chimps, Bonobos, Orangatans, and Gorillas), dolphins and some whales, and elephants. An Orangutan has the intelligence and emotional ability of a 4 year old child. Why on earth would we not give them some legal protections that go beyond what we would grant a lab rat?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother AJ View Post
    Well it's good to see so much support, but I have to say that this value being placed upon "intelligence" makes me uncomfortable. Even the "less than intelligent" do not deserve what these animals are forced to endure. Do you apply this thinking to human beings as well?

    I also hope that we will not suddenly venture down the dark road of utilitarianism and suddenly claim that these animal's rights should be taken away only if they're being tested on in a laboratory.
    Even as a supporter of primate rights I support medical experimentation if it's absolutely necessary. I'm willing to sacrifice their rights and/or desires for the betterment of my species.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    2. Ya, it does actually.
    Explain why.

    3. Flies protect their own well-being as well. And rich seems an excessively vague term.

    Sentient: able to perceive or feel things

    This clearly includes flies.

    Now if you would, please identify a specific difference, and explain why this should grant one rights and not the other.
    As I said, none of this has been conclusively proven. It is not "clear" that flies are able to experience anything, but it certainly is a possibility.

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    Re: Court in Argentina grants basic rights to orangutan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Even as a supporter of primate rights I support medical experimentation if it's absolutely necessary. I'm willing to sacrifice their rights and/or desires for the betterment of my species.
    It's not medical experimentation anyway that is the huge threat to orangutans, its the wholesale destruction of their habitat to create more and more palm oil plantations that could very well bring about their extinction.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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