One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle[W:132]

washunut · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

Zyphlin said:
That Sharpton stated a desire for....or led/hosted protests with people calling for...dead cops. Specifically in reference to a youtube video of a december 13th protest that was happening in New York City where people were chanting "what do we want, dead cops".

Not sure I saw a post specifically blaming Sharpton for that. You sure you read correctly. Or just trying to cover up what you are posting here.

washunut · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

Zyphlin said:
As I've said here and in other threads...

Sharpton is a rabble rousing asshole that is a barnacle on the ass of the black community, showing up whenever there's a chance to self promote and heighten his own persona, and routinely enflaming situations for his own self interest.

I don't like the guy, I generally don't care what the guy says, I think he's an ego centric glory hound that gets far too much attention and given far too much standing by too many people, such as the President.

His promoting of false narratives during this entire ordeal has been ridiculous, and while I respect the fact he has urged against violence and urged against making these protests about peoples "anger", his continued attempts to push this as a massive racial "us vs them" situation has stoked the fires and helped to create the sensationalistic atmosphere surrounding these deaths.

However, as is the case so often on this board and elsewhere, when people can't even attack an easily attackable target without resorting to distortion, misrepresentaiton, and outright lies then it creates a situation where honest debaters have to address said lies. Not because they necessarily support the people those lies or distortions are being said about, but because an honest and legitimate conversation about REALITY can't be had when said discussion is being blanketed by, or built upon a foundation of, outright lies and falsehoods.

Throughout this thread, as well as others, people have repeatedly built abject lies into the foundation of their attacks against Sharpton and their claims of his culpability, and those accusations have to be addressed and dealt with before the foundation can be talked about in a realistic and honest fashion. And thus far only one poster has even acknowledged their error...and even that poster did so in a mocking and sarcastic manner suggesting he didn't even truly acknowledge the error of his claims.

Meanwhile, other posters who haven't made the claim have been attacking and condemning those who are pointing out the lie...indicating that they, if not directly believing said lie, are in favor of said lie being propogated and repeated as part of the basis to attack Sharpton.

You are very quick to call those with whom you disagree liars. Not sure what that says about your character.

As to your main point, I am one of those who do link his outrageous comments with violence in the past. Go back and do your research about Crown Heights and his "white interloper" speech in Harlem and get back to us. If you truly believe his speeches have not led to violence in the past you are either ignorant, have your head up your a**, or simply so in love with hate speech you have lost all perspective.

Wiggen · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

tres borrachos said:
Thanks for your riveting contribution to the thread, Wiggen. Anything to say about my post? The thread isn't about me (see subject line for confirmation of that).

You really want me to comment on your post? OK, it was dumb and trite. On the bright side, however, you got apdst to like it. Congratulations.

Zyphlin · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

washunut said:
Not sure I saw a post specifically blaming Sharpton for that. You sure you read correctly. Or just trying to cover up what you are posting here.

Not spending a ton of time digging back through to find every instance, but know where a few are real quick. From this thread...

Navy Pride said:
He was leading the parade chanting "What doe we want? Dead cops.......When do we want them? Now....Well that scumbag got his wish.

apdst said:
Where was his lip service when protesters, at his event, were calling for the murder of policemen?

Meanwhile, the last guy Kobie was arguing with...US Conservative...posted up a seperate thread asking if Al Sharpton contributed to the deaths, using the following as the basis for his argument in the OP (and has still yet to acknowledge his assertion was incorrect):

US Conservative said:
Al Sharpton's race hustling and poverty pimping are long known and he's a frequent guest to the Obama whitehouse, but in recent days Sharpton led a rally in NYC where "What Do We Want?… Dead Cops!” was shouted.

Zyphlin · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

washunut said:
You are very quick to call those with whom you disagree liars.

No, I'm very quick to suggest people who repeatedly state provably false information, after they've been shown evidence of said information being false, are lying....and that people who repeatedly post false information unknowingly are spreading false information.

Becuase that's what they're doing.

Not because "I disagree with them". But because they keep making claims of something without any legitimate evidence supporting their claim and a mountain of evidence proving their claim is wrong.

washunut · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

Zyphlin said:
No, I'm very quick to suggest people who repeatedly state provably false information, after they've been shown evidence of said information being false, are lying....and that people who repeatedly post false information unknowingly are spreading false information.

Becuase that's what they're doing.

Not because "I disagree with them". But because they keep making claims of something without any legitimate evidence supporting their claim and a mountain of evidence proving their claim is wrong.

Well I hate to agree with someone sticking up for Sharpton, but you raise a fair argument.

vesper · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

apdst said:
Poor All isn't getting lied on. He's doing everything he can to fuel the flames.

New York mayor calls for pause in protests after police killings

I read that too. Evidently Sharpton is going to continue with his planned rallies one for Garner in NYC and one for Brown in Ferguson.

Now why would one need to go on with rallies each with the family of the victim present, when both cases have been turned over to the Justice Dept for further scrutiny of civil rights violations?

whysoserious · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

vesper said:
I read that too. Evidently Sharpton is going to continue with his planned rallies one for Garner in NYC and one for Brown in Ferguson.

Now why would one need to go on with rallies each with the family of the victim present, when both cases have been turned over to the Justice Dept for further scrutiny of civil rights violations?

Sharpton is useless, but if he's not doing this, what's he going to do?

It's like the risk people at your work - if they don't find something wrong with your process, what is the point of them being there? So even if your process is near flawless, they're going to come with some stupid idea for you to change because otherwise they didn't do ****.

Zyphlin · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

The recent "woe is me, the media is bad" cries from De Blaiso are laughable. I specifically enjoyed him complaining that the media focuses too much on the few protesters doing "immoral" things that aren't representitive of the majority...while seemingly oblivious to the hypocrisy of that after talking about how he had to teach his kid about the dangers of cops, seemingly focusing on the few cops doing "immoral things" that aren't represntative of the majority.

Yes Mr. De Blaiso, the media does have culpability in terms of enflaming the general population as it relates to these issues, to stoking the fire and helping to fuel it for people on both sides of the debate. However, the Mayor ALSO holds responsability with that, and for him to come out chiding the media...especially in such a hypocritical way...is hillarious.

whysoserious · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

Zyphlin said:
The recent "woe is me, the media is bad" cries from De Blaiso are laughable. I specifically enjoyed him complaining that the media focuses too much on the few protesters doing "immoral" things that aren't representitive of the majority...while seemingly oblivious to the hypocrisy of that after talking about how he had to teach his kid about the dangers of cops, seemingly focusing on the few cops doing "immoral things" that aren't represntative of the majority.

Yes Mr. De Blaiso, the media does have culpability in terms of enflaming the general population as it relates to these issues, to stoking the fire and helping to fuel it for people on both sides of the debate. However, the Mayor ALSO holds responsability with that, and for him to come out chiding the media...especially in such a hypocritical way...is hillarious.

That's a good point, and indicative of how the media and public operates in general. The national media is generally going to report on things that are either extraordinarily bad or good - so every day good/bad don't get reported.

Zyphlin · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

whysoserious said:
Sharpton is useless, but if he's not doing this, what's he going to do?

It's like the risk people at your work - if they don't find something wrong with your process, what is the point of them being there? So even if your process is near flawless, they're going to come with some stupid idea for you to change because otherwise they didn't do ****.

This is actually one of those things I've said about "movements" for some time on this forum...be it right, left, or even apolitical movements.

The problem with a movement is that they never really organically end. They never can actually reach their goal or accomplish anything; at least not in a sense that they can actually acknowledged that they succeeded in a significant way.

Why?

Well because then the power, the money, the prestige, the work...it goes away.

That's why pretty much every movement in my mind eventually becomes a distorted charicature of what it truly is...especially ones that have success. There always has to be another problem, it always can't be good enough, it never can be acknowldeged to be isgnificantly better than it was..because if it is then they will begin to question why they need to be giving you so much support anymore.

Again, this is a left and right thing. It's an apolitical notion. The same kind of thing will eventually happen to the tea party, I have no doubt.

Sharpton is a barnacle. He's a parasite. For him to have influence, to have power, to make money, to gain notiriety and to stay relevant, there has to be racial unrest. And the bigger that unrest is the more important he is. So if there's little unrest out there, then something needs to be stirred up to look a little bigger. And if there's legitimate unrest out there, then it needs to be made out to be the worst thing ever. Because otherwise, what is Sharpton supposed to do? What's his worth? What's his value? Thereis none.

You're spot on in comparing it to people at a workplace who recognize that their job is pretty much something that goes on auto-pilot, so they do just enough to make it look like there's consistent work to be done and they allow things to go "wrong" just enough to make it look like there's significant value in having them around.

Zyphlin · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

whysoserious said:
That's a good point, and indicative of how the media and public operates in general. The national media is generally going to report on things that are either extraordinarily bad or good - so every day good/bad don't get reported.

Contraversy sells. The only thing better than a story everyone will like or everyone will be upset about is one that will upset a large portion of people for differing reasons, causing them to argue with each other, which inherently keeps things on the forefront and gives the media fodder.

Strangely enough, the sports media is the type that is easiest to use to illustrate this type of thing...

I normally am not a huge fan of deadspin, but they illustrate this wonderfully HERE.

Something benign but mildly interesting happens.

A blowhard, in the guise of a "member of the media", makes outrageous statements or claims that blowhards normally make.

Viewers take note of blowhards take on event, and they have split opinions on it, and they argue about it generating interest.

Then the media has actual journalists report on the event and the uproar over the event brought about due to the blowhard comments from the media.

Then another blowhard in the media brings up the report about the reaction to the original blowhards opinion about an event in order to give their own conflicting and just as outlandish opinion regarding the event.

Which starts the whole cycle over again.

Glen Contrarian · Dec 23, 2014

mike2810 said:
- Not all the police actions the protesters are marching on were wrong. (imo)

I never said they were...but there's been enough wrong actions by the police that people have taken notice. That's why I'm a big fan of body cameras for police...and they work:

Police officers in the small city of Rialto in San Bernardino County have been wearing cameras since 2012. Rialto Police Chief William A. Farrar, working with a Cambridge University researcher, found two big results: Complaints against his officers declined by 88 percent and officer use of force declined by 60 percent.

Think about that. If the police weren't at least sometimes doing that which is wrong, why would the use of body cameras result in such a dramatic drop, not just in complaints against the police but - and this is the important factor - a 60 percent drop in the use of force by the police?

apdst · Dec 23, 2014

Glen Contrarian said:
I never said they were...but there's been enough wrong actions by the police that people have taken notice. That's why I'm a big fan of body cameras for police...and they work:

Police officers in the small city of Rialto in San Bernardino County have been wearing cameras since 2012. Rialto Police Chief William A. Farrar, working with a Cambridge University researcher, found two big results: Complaints against his officers declined by 88 percent and officer use of force declined by 60 percent.

Think about that. If the police weren't at least sometimes doing that which is wrong, why would the use of body cameras result in such a dramatic drop, not just in complaints against the police but - and this is the important factor - a 60 percent drop in the use of force by the police?

There's video of Eric Garner resisting arrest and it makes no difference.

whysoserious · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

Zyphlin said:
The problem with a movement is that they never really organically end. They never can actually reach their goal or accomplish anything; at least not in a sense that they can actually acknowledged that they succeeded in a significant way.

Well because then the power, the money, the prestige, the work...it goes away.

Great point. One of the easiest examples to see how a movement rots away is the OWS movement. Now this one I think was more susceptible than most because it didn't have a clear goal and was truly join-able by anyone. So what starts out as a "we think Wall Street should be more responsible"-type movement gets hijacked by anyone willing to shout louder than the rest.

Zyphlin said:
I normally am not a huge fan of deadspin, but they illustrate this wonderfully HERE.

Wow, that was a fantastic read. I was just having a conversation earlier about how CNN, Fox News, ESPN, and other media outlets do that - report on something highly circumstantial, and then report on the fact that it has been reported on. It goes from being a blogger opinion, to being actual news.

But on a side note, I do think it's unfair when people jab on the news with comments like, "How can you cover that school shooting where 5 white kids died, but 10 black kids were shot in Chicago yesterday and there was no peep?", or "How can you cover the three people that looted during the disaster, but not the hundreds of people who were just trying to get supplies and food?".

These types of things are not examples of liberal or conservative bias. One is an extraordinary situation and the other isn't. So to your point about De Blaiso, it's a similar situation. People demonstrating peacefully garners some news, but it's not extraordinary. It's not really all that worthy of national attention, unless something about it makes it become extraordinary (such as violence or unprecedented community support). Why would the media focus on something that is supposed to happen?

What would the report be: "People gathered, and some of them were not douches!"?

mike2810 · Dec 23, 2014

Glen Contrarian said:
I never said they were...but there's been enough wrong actions by the police that people have taken notice. That's why I'm a big fan of body cameras for police...and they work:

Police officers in the small city of Rialto in San Bernardino County have been wearing cameras since 2012. Rialto Police Chief William A. Farrar, working with a Cambridge University researcher, found two big results: Complaints against his officers declined by 88 percent and officer use of force declined by 60 percent.

Think about that. If the police weren't at least sometimes doing that which is wrong, why would the use of body cameras result in such a dramatic drop, not just in complaints against the police but - and this is the important factor - a 60 percent drop in the use of force by the police?

Didn't say you did. I was responding to your comment regarding the "protesters". imo, some protesters act without knowing the facts.

Yes, body cameras seem to help.

Think about it. The drop in complaints and use of force may have more to do with the fact the citizen knows the their actions are being recorded. It is more difficult for one to claim police excessive force when your actions are recorded.

apdst · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

whysoserious said:
Great point. One of the easiest examples to see how a movement rots away is the OWS movement. Now this one I think was more susceptible than most because it didn't have a clear goal and was truly join-able by anyone. So what starts out as a "we think Wall Street should be more responsible"-type movement gets hijacked by anyone willing to shout louder than the rest.

Wow, that was a fantastic read. I was just having a conversation earlier about how CNN, Fox News, ESPN, and other media outlets do that - report on something highly circumstantial, and then report on the fact that it has been reported on. It goes from being a blogger opinion, to being actual news.

But on a side note, I do think it's unfair when people jab on the news with comments like, "How can you cover that school shooting where 5 white kids died, but 10 black kids were shot in Chicago yesterday and there was no peep?", or "How can you cover the three people that looted during the disaster, but not the hundreds of people who were just trying to get supplies and food?".

These types of things are not examples of liberal or conservative bias. One is an extraordinary situation and the other isn't. So to your point about De Blaiso, it's a similar situation. People demonstrating peacefully garners some news, but it's not extraordinary. It's not really all that worthy of national attention, unless something about it makes it become extraordinary (such as violence or unprecedented community support). Why would the media focus on something that is supposed to happen?

What would the report be: "People gathered, and some of them were not douches!"?

Neh, this one is going to rot, too; probably more so than OWS.

Hearts and minds: Anti-police protesters crash memorial for slain NYPD officers « Hot Air

This movement is going to rate right up there with Westboro Baptist Church, before long.

whysoserious · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

apdst said:
Neh, this one is going to rot, too; probably more so than OWS.

Hearts and minds: Anti-police protesters crash memorial for slain NYPD officers « Hot Air

This movement is going to rate right up there with Westboro Baptist Church, before long.

I would tend to agree. The worst types of people can take a noble cause and ruin it with great efficiency.

j-mac · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

Zyphlin said:
He absolutely does have a record of stoking racial fires. I don't like him either.

The difference betweeen us it seems is that despite disliking him, I don't think it's wrong, unfair, or worthy of condemnation to call out people who's arguments are based on outright lies simply because I dislike Sharpton.

You would think they are...and yet you've still got posters who have been repeatedly claiming that Al Sharpton called for dead cops, or suggesting that he led/hosted protests with people calling for dead cops.

When the facts show that's absolutely false.

Did he sell tickets to protest or something? I mean, how do know that the group chanting for dead cops weren't part of Sharpton's group that day?

Zyphlin · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

j-mac said:
Did he sell tickets to protest or something? I mean, how do know that the group chanting for dead cops weren't part of Sharpton's group that day?

The group in question was reported to be in New York on December 13th as part of the Millions March NYC.

As you can see from that link, the event was organized and hosted by two women...Synead Nichols and Umaara Elliot. If you scan their website you will not see any claims of support from Al Sharpton or the civil rights group he founded, the National Action Network.

If you go to that site and check the press releases, you'll find in the second press release a name of all the official co-sponsors/organizers for the group. You'll again notice that Al Sharpton and/or the NAN are no where to be found on it.

Meanwhile, Sharpton was 225 miles away in Washington DC hosting his Justice for All March. This march was also on December 13th, the same day as the Millions March NYC, but in an entirely diffrent city.

You can google "National Action Network" and "Justice for All March" and find all sorts of links to instances on their website talking about the protest in DC they organized and hosted.

The only "evidence" that the New York crowd was in any way related to Sharpton has been:

1. Random right wing blogs that are either unsourced...OR the sources they link to actually don't verify any of the claims they make
2. Headlines or videos, such as a Fox and Friends video, where the NYC protests and the Al Sharpton protests are spoken about back to back giving the IMPRESSION they were directly related despite being entirely seperate events hosted by entirely different people.

j-mac · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

Zyphlin said:
The group in question was reported to be in New York on December 13th as part of the Millions March NYC.

As you can see from that link, the event was organized and hosted by two women...Synead Nichols and Umaara Elliot. If you scan their website you will not see any claims of support from Al Sharpton or the civil rights group he founded, the National Action Network.

If you go to that site and check the press releases, you'll find in the second press release a name of all the official co-sponsors/organizers for the group. You'll again notice that Al Sharpton and/or the NAN are no where to be found on it.

Meanwhile, Sharpton was 225 miles away in Washington DC hosting his Justice for All March. This march was also on December 13th, the same day as the Millions March NYC, but in an entirely diffrent city.

You can google "National Action Network" and "Justice for All March" and find all sorts of links to instances on their website talking about the protest in DC they organized and hosted.

The only "evidence" that the New York crowd was in any way related to Sharpton has been:

1. Random right wing blogs that are either unsourced...OR the sources they link to actually don't verify any of the claims they make
2. Headlines or videos, such as a Fox and Friends video, where the NYC protests and the Al Sharpton protests are spoken about back to back giving the IMPRESSION they were directly related despite being entirely seperate events hosted by entirely different people.

Ok, thanks for the reply.

apdst · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

whysoserious said:
I would tend to agree. The worst types of people can take a noble cause and ruin it with great efficiency.

If this were a noble cause, it couldn't be ruined. This is nothing more than another hostile movement by race hustlers and anti-American Leftists.

whysoserious · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

apdst said:
If this were a noble cause, it couldn't be ruined. This is nothing more than another hostile movement by race hustlers and anti-American Leftists.

That's far too black and white of a view to be true.

Fenton · Dec 23, 2014

whysoserious said:
That's far too black and white of a view to be true.

For such a " noble cause " it sure is fragile.

If it can be brought down by a few bad apples how " noble " can it be ?

The truth is if it was a cause based and backed by substance and not false narratives no amount of bad apples could bring it down.

The central tenant of a Noble cause remains no matter what someone does to undermine it.

The central tenants of this " cause " are all based on a BS plattitudes and misinformation. It was only a matter of time.

apdst · Dec 23, 2014

Re: One NYPD Cop Dead, Another Critical After They Were Shot in Vehicle

whysoserious said:
That's far too black and white of a view to be true.

There's no evidence to the contrary; and as far as the peaceful protestors go, they're just useful idiots.