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Thread: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    should we not have used sanctions in tandem with Europe? Did we send military aid to Uk? (no)

    Putin's land grab violating the Budapest Memorandum
    Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ....just forget about it all?
    i support vastly reducing our involvement in stuff like this. we should abandon this "global superpower" stuff in favor of regional powers. each regional hegemon would be responsible for regional stability. for example, we could be involved brokering peace in Central America if the region were to erupt into serious unrest. we could also concentrate on Mexico, which is being torn apart by drug gangs. but Ukraine? no. not our job. same thing with the Middle East. once we're out of there, Saudi Arabia and Iran will be forced to do their jobs. it's starting already, as the US has minimized involvement. if we were to go in there for all out war, though, Saudi Arabia could go back to doing nothing. we just can't afford to be involved in everything. no nation can. perpetual war is what sinks empires.

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    What Putin says is true. We are conducting an "Economic War" against Russia.
    The sanctions are economic war and it is very likely that John Kerry's August
    trip to Saudi Arabia was to request for an OIL price drop to corral the Russian "Gas
    Station,(McCain), by squeezing the product that generates about 60% or more
    of the Russian economy. Keep in mind that Russia suffered 20 million casualties
    in WWII helping the allies snuff Hitler. We've been treating them like an enemy
    ever since. The backstory is that CORPORATISM is deathly afraid of Communism
    because it is labor oriented instead of Elitist Capital oriented. Russia's actions
    to co-ordinate the BRICS Nations and develop alternative banking, currency, and
    financing arrangements are what is behind the USA intrigue to bankrupt Russia.
    The USA is colluding with the World's largest banks and uses the power of the
    Reserve Currency against Russia. Russia must operate with its' own surplus
    capital whereas the USA continuously writes checks (new money/debt) to add
    to Trillions of dollars of debt that the money structure of the World must tolerate.
    Russia is organizing a threat to that Unlimited Debt hegemony. If China and India
    decide to help Russia with their large surpluses, Russia will recover more rapidly,
    Irregardless, Russia will recover and develop a more independent economy and, most
    definitely, an alternative banking environment. Russia is the new boogeyman of the
    "Mighty Wurlitzer" CIA generated narrative and big boost to the Military Industrial
    Corporate Complex that needs a focused potential enemy/threat to keep the DOLLARS
    flowing. Over 60% of the US economy goes to Military Offense. Does that make people
    proud? I don't think so.
    "Over 60% of the US economy goes to Military Offense."

    It was Russia's subjugation of Eastern Europe that made Russia the enemy. That and the Russian post war slaughter of civilians.

    The goal of the West to to prevent that subjugation of Eastern Europe again by blocking the recreation of the Soviet Empire. The Ukraine is key to this. I understand you totally approve of the slaughter and deportation of the Tartars and non-Russian Ukraines. You are a person who loves genocides in your messages. But you aren't getting your way.

    Russia's threats against the Saudi's is what got this going - and then Russian's military invasion of Crimea and covert invasion of Eastern Ukraine. Saudi Arabia turned open the flow of their cheap oil and OPEC joined it - plus this slows the West's development of shale oil and shifting to natural gas and other alternatives.

    If Turkey would get on board we could slam Russia's natural gas prices too, big time. Your tyrant may be going down to the fury of his own starving, cold people. The Russian shelves are going bare, inflation is growing, money is fleeing and winter is coming.

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i support vastly reducing our involvement in stuff like this. we should abandon this "global superpower" stuff in favor of regional powers. each regional hegemon would be responsible for regional stability. for example, we could be involved brokering peace in Central America if the region were to erupt into serious unrest. we could also concentrate on Mexico, which is being torn apart by drug gangs. but Ukraine? no. not our job. same thing with the Middle East. once we're out of there, Saudi Arabia and Iran will be forced to do their jobs. it's starting already, as the US has minimized involvement. if we were to go in there for all out war, though, Saudi Arabia could go back to doing nothing. we just can't afford to be involved in everything. no nation can. perpetual war is what sinks empires.
    That was exactly Hitler's proposal to the UK. Germany would be the hedgmon of continental Europe. In return, UK could keep it's vast empire, provided Germany got one Middle East oil country. Some historians believe he did not destroy the British at Dunkirk believing he could make that deal. The UK said no.

    A world of regional superpowers is a world destined to super wars. That is history.

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i support vastly reducing our involvement in stuff like this. we should abandon this "global superpower" stuff in favor of regional powers. each regional hegemon would be responsible for regional stability. for example, we could be involved brokering peace in Central America if the region were to erupt into serious unrest. we could also concentrate on Mexico, which is being torn apart by drug gangs. but Ukraine? no. not our job. same thing with the Middle East. once we're out of there, Saudi Arabia and Iran will be forced to do their jobs. it's starting already, as the US has minimized involvement. if we were to go in there for all out war, though, Saudi Arabia could go back to doing nothing. we just can't afford to be involved in everything. no nation can. perpetual war is what sinks empires.
    thing about regional powers is they have their own agendas too.
    Mid East Big Guys are Saudi Arabia and Iran -and they despise each other. While I'd like to see a more balanced approach with Iran,
    we can't just shift overnight either with our security agreements, and weapons sales to Saudi Arabia.

    I have no idea what we could do with Mexican drug gangs, other then legalize all that stuff ( libertarian approach),
    and just tax it, instead of having the DEA drive west hemisphere policy.
    I do agree a more sane relationship with Cuba was well past due -but we also have world (global superpower)duties like it or not.

    China and Russia will only act in their self interests. Tibet and Ukraine are good examples. They will glom up territory.
    China is smarter then Russia in the use of "soft power" The Decline of America's Soft Power | Foreign Affairs
    but they are backing it up with a new fighter that they prolly ripped off the design from our F-35, as well as any other weapons systems they are pumping money into.

    My point is we could do a better job with soft power -no more land wars of intervention -
    or regime change like Libya ( which is now a failed terrorist state).
    But we simply cannot abandon global roles as there isn't anyone else to take our place.

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    That was exactly Hitler's proposal to the UK. Germany would be the hedgmon of continental Europe. In return, UK could keep it's vast empire, provided Germany got one Middle East oil country. Some historians believe he did not destroy the British at Dunkirk believing he could make that deal. The UK said no.

    A world of regional superpowers is a world destined to super wars. That is history.
    nice Godwin, but endless war has sunk pretty much every empire. that's history, too. Sun Tzu pointed it out in 500 BC, and empires have been ignoring it at their own peril ever since.

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    thing about regional powers is they have their own agendas too.
    Mid East Big Guys are Saudi Arabia and Iran -and they despise each other. While I'd like to see a more balanced approach with Iran,
    we can't just shift overnight either with our security agreements, and weapons sales to Saudi Arabia.
    i'd like to see us get out of the region almost entirely for thirty years at least to give it time to stabilize.

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    I have no idea what we could do with Mexican drug gangs, other then legalize all that stuff ( libertarian approach),
    and just tax it, instead of having the DEA drive west hemisphere policy.
    I do agree a more sane relationship with Cuba was well past due -but we also have world (global superpower)duties like it or not.
    some form of your approach could work.

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    China and Russia will only act in their self interests. Tibet and Ukraine are good examples. They will glom up territory.
    China is smarter then Russia in the use of "soft power" The Decline of America's Soft Power | Foreign Affairs
    but they are backing it up with a new fighter that they prolly ripped off the design from our F-35, as well as any other weapons systems they are pumping money into.

    My point is we could do a better job with soft power -no more land wars of intervention -
    or regime change like Libya ( which is now a failed terrorist state).
    But we simply cannot abandon global roles as there isn't anyone else to take our place.
    the world doesn't need a pro bono global policeman. if the world would like our help, and our help is absolutely necessary, then the region needs to fund it. no more pro bono war on the credit card. we need to spend that money elsewhere. the house is falling apart, and needs repair.

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'


    some colorful language -read other sources for more in depth.
    He also mention US torture post 9-11, and lashes out at a question about political reform.

    Be interesting to see if Russia can diversify from an extractive economy; or as McCain called it
    "a glorified gas station"
    EDIT: his annual news conference
    Unfortunately, ordinary Russians share part of the blame for the current economical crisis.
    Not only governments' actions dictate the economical strength of a country but also the attitude of the general population to its' role in the country's economy.

    Currently, Russia is swamped with bureaucrats, and low quality "professionals" that breed corruption and incompetence, both are still a disease that Russia as a whole struggles to deal with. These factors combined with several others make Russia's economy as weak as it is today.
    In order for Russia to survive and become a competitive economical player it needs to restructure not only its economy but also a lot of the socioeconomic structures that were created in the past 10-20 years.

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    nice Godwin, but endless war has sunk pretty much every empire. that's history, too. Sun Tzu pointed it out in 500 BC, and empires have been ignoring it at their own peril ever since.


    Every empire has sunk. Every empire was built upon war. Empires have fallen for reasons other than war.

    People like pretty pictures of the USA, of what made the USA incredibly wealthy and the most powerful country on earth.

    The USA was built by war. Against the British.

    Attempted in Canada - but failed.

    Against Native Americans.

    Against Spanish.

    Against Mexico.

    Take territory militarily. Build forts to keep it. Build navies to protect colonies. That is USA history.

    The Spanish American War is when the USA first became a true world power.

    WWI put the USA in the category of the other big boys worldwide.

    WWII was the USA conquering the world in final effect. Every industrial nation was busted, most of their industry obliterated. Many or all of their colonies gone Russia isolated.

    The problem with Sun Tzu's theory is that everyone in the world all has to agree to be nice to each other and to share. The USA could share with the world I suppose. Do you think any politician is going to succeed on a campaign of reducing the American standard of living by 80% to share with the rest of the world?

    Ultimately, there will always be push back against the rich and powerful nations/empires by poor ones. The rich/powerful nations be wealthy including by employing military superiority, covert tactics, alliances, and all the rest.

    What is unfortunately is that there is almost NO honesty in debating foreign policy - by anyone. War hawks vehemently deny we fight in the M.E. for oil and natural resources - yet that is 100% exactly why. Doves will claim our blood for oil can be given up and everyone can ride bicycles in some never-can-exist hippie view of economics and reality.

    Russia returning to the being the USSR is not an irrelevancy to the USA despite your believing otherwise. The USA will get out of the M.E. when it is in the interests of the USA to do so. The fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan - the pricking around Russia? To keep the quiet areas quiet and ours - those countries on Russia's Southern border almost no one knows exist - and few know we have air and military bases there.

    Rather than going on and going, the simplistic logic of both "hawks" and "doves" is both naïve and false. They debate over pretend realities.

    The USA is not a peace loving country. Time to time people want a break from wars, brief periods of isolationism - or rather not overt war. But like all empires, the USA is a warrior nation and always has been, it is an empire, was built the way empires are build.

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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    each regional hegemon would be responsible for regional stability.
    Ukraine has been independent and peaceful since the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991. Ukraine voluntarily relinquished all nuclear weapons on her territory (Budapest Memorandum) and declared itself a military neutral.

    Ukraine did not invade Russia. The regional hegemon you would entrust to maintain regional stability stole Crimea, and is deeply involved in planning/supporting/maintaining "frozen conflicts" in eastern Ukraine, the Caucases, and Transnistria.


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    Re: Putin: West wants to put Russian bear 'on a chain'

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Every empire has sunk. Every empire was built upon war. Empires have fallen for reasons other than war.

    People like pretty pictures of the USA, of what made the USA incredibly wealthy and the most powerful country on earth.

    The USA was built by war. Against the British.

    Attempted in Canada - but failed.

    Against Native Americans.

    Against Spanish.

    Against Mexico.

    Take territory militarily. Build forts to keep it. Build navies to protect colonies. That is USA history.

    The Spanish American War is when the USA first became a true world power.

    WWI put the USA in the category of the other big boys worldwide.

    WWII was the USA conquering the world in final effect. Every industrial nation was busted, most of their industry obliterated. Many or all of their colonies gone Russia isolated.

    The problem with Sun Tzu's theory is that everyone in the world all has to agree to be nice to each other and to share. The USA could share with the world I suppose. Do you think any politician is going to succeed on a campaign of reducing the American standard of living by 80% to share with the rest of the world?

    Ultimately, there will always be push back against the rich and powerful nations/empires by poor ones. The rich/powerful nations be wealthy including by employing military superiority, covert tactics, alliances, and all the rest.

    What is unfortunately is that there is almost NO honesty in debating foreign policy - by anyone. War hawks vehemently deny we fight in the M.E. for oil and natural resources - yet that is 100% exactly why. Doves will claim our blood for oil can be given up and everyone can ride bicycles in some never-can-exist hippie view of economics and reality.

    Russia returning to the being the USSR is not an irrelevancy to the USA despite your believing otherwise. The USA will get out of the M.E. when it is in the interests of the USA to do so. The fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan - the pricking around Russia? To keep the quiet areas quiet and ours - those countries on Russia's Southern border almost no one knows exist - and few know we have air and military bases there.

    Rather than going on and going, the simplistic logic of both "hawks" and "doves" is both naïve and false. They debate over pretend realities.

    The USA is not a peace loving country. Time to time people want a break from wars, brief periods of isolationism - or rather not overt war. But like all empires, the USA is a warrior nation and always has been, it is an empire, was built the way empires are build.
    empires fall. nations can last and thrive. we should be a nation first.

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