• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

U.S., Cuba to restore diplomatic relations after 50 years

vesper said:
Actually our government eased up on the embargo and provided humanitarian aid to Cuba, passed by a Republican controlled Congress and signed by Bill Clinton.

Funny, Cuban refugees didn't start pouring out onto our shores crossing on anything that could float for 200 miles until the Castro brothers took control. So it must have been a place the Cuban people were much happier and had more opportunities to produce a good life for themselves.

BS on the Communism. Pull your head out of the sand. Hell do a google search.
Click to expand...

Re: China and capitalism:

In 2012, China was the 18th fastest growing economy in the world, with a real GDP growth rate (constant prices, national currency) of 7.8 percent. Although the figure is its slowest growth since 1999, it is also representative of a maturing economy as it gradually transition from a developing to developed nation.

Since 1949, the Chinese government has been responsible for planning and managing the national economy. But it was only in 1978 – when Deng Xiaoping introduced capitalist market principles –that the Chinese economy began to show massive growth, averaging 10 percent GDP growth over the last 30 years. During that period the size of the Chinese economy grew by roughly 48 times, from $168.367 billion (current prices, US dollars) in 1981 to $8.227 trillion.
Click to expand...

Communism is a failed ideology. It is dead. There is no longer a need to be fighting the cold war. We already won.
 
MMC said:
WellBottomline......the ones that lose, are those in Cuba who have been fighting for Democracy only to watch BO peep enable Castro's Tyranny.
Click to expand...

Doesn't it just make you sick to your stomach, what Obama has done? People fighting, hoping for Castro to finally be gone and a chance at some sort of freedom. People that have escaped and come here that want their country to be freed. The poor people, living under this regime all these years. And then, under cut by our amateur in the White House. He throws a lifeline to his beloved communist buddies. Just horrible, I feel bad for them.
 
Anthony60 said:
Doesn't it just make you sick to your stomach, what Obama has done? People fighting, hoping for Castro to finally be gone and a chance at some sort of freedom. People that have escaped and come here that want their country to be freed. The poor people, living under this regime all these years. And then, under cut by our amateur in the White House. He throws a lifeline to his beloved communist buddies. Just horrible, I feel bad for them.
Click to expand...
Couldn't this spark a revolution of some kind.
 
JasperL said:
I don't see it that way. We've had a policy for 50 years that by all accounts "enabled Castro's Tyranny." It's just the historical record - we cut off all ties, imposed an economic embargo and travel ban, and Fidel is in his bed somewhere, having ruled for that entire time, and will almost surely die a free man in his own bed, and in the meantime the economic sanctions have hurt ordinary Cubans while doing exactly NOTHING to wrest power from Fidel and now his brother. How could something fail worse than that?
Click to expand...



Here Basic Wiki has a timeline.....it will help reacquaint the past events. ;)




1996 February Cuban authorities arrest or detain at least 150 dissidents, marking the most widespread crackdown on opposition groups in the country since the early 1960s.

24 February Cuban fighter jets shoot down two US-registered civilian aircraft over international waters, killing four men

12 March The Helms-Burton Act, which extends the U.S. embargo against Cuba to foreign companies is passed.

2003 Apr Cuban government arrest 78 writers and dissidents blaming U.S. provocation and interference from James Cason, the chief of the United States Interests Section in Havana.....snip~

Timeline of Cuban history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Dittohead not! said:
I dunno... what would he want from Cuba?

Perhaps one of those classic '50s cars or something.
Click to expand...

I don't know, I am not a State Dept. expert on Cuban/American relations. But it seems to me, we want to see at the very least, the Castro Bros. loosen their grip, and move toward a more free Cuba...With Cuba taking a hit because their main monetary source, Venezuela drying up, they were primed to give on some of that....We got NOTHING.
 
CanadaJohn said:
So, in other words, it was basically a useless move by a petulant President who can't get his own way so he resorts to stirring the pot with no solid policy conclusions. Just what I've been saying.

And just to be clear, perhaps you can tell us what are the significant American national interests resulting from Obama's move?
Click to expand...

Who said it was a "useless move" except right wing talking heads? Why would the Vatican or Canada get involved in negotiating something "useless?" It's a first step - do you have a suggestion about a better first step, or would you require that all the problems in Cuba be solved to Charles Krauthammer's liking before we do anything?

And the last bit is just you being a partisan. If you can't think of any good reasons for better relations with a neighbor 90 miles off our coast, how that might benefit the people of Cuba, their relatives here in the U.S. and the Americas, use your imagination, maybe read something.

It's not on the same level as Russia, but then it doesn't have to be on CanadaJohn's list of "Priority #1 Must Do Important!!!" items to make it worth doing.
 
Last edited:
Texmex said:
America isn't. Remember there is a right-wing lean to this political forum. A majority of Americans aren't this extreme.
Click to expand...
Well Damn that explains a lot. Good to know.
 
Anthony60 said:
Yes, you did almost think that, didn't you?
Click to expand...

You could certainly check the worst of those boxes if it was Saudi Arabia, including state sponsor of terrorism. I'm quite sure the average American is FAR more at risk because of wealthy Saudis sponsoring radical Islam in the ME and elsewhere than anything the Castro brothers have done in a couple decades at least - probably back to the Cuban missile crisis.
 
MMC said:
Here Basic Wiki has a timeline.....it will help reacquaint the past events. ;)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your point is - nothing there to show the great successes of our 50 year policy with Cuba...
 
Dittohead not! said:
Re: China and capitalism:



Communism is a failed ideology. It is dead. There is no longer a need to be fighting the cold war. We already won.
Click to expand...

Oh really? Do you discern what is Communism over whether their governments are in the global markets to make money? Can you not discern what is an economic system set up to support a government versus an individual? Oh Jesus help us.

Tiananmen Square is located in the center of Beijing, the capital of China.

Tiananmen means "gate of heavenly peace."

In 1989, after several weeks of demonstrations, Chinese troops entered Tiananmen Square on June 4 and fired on civilians. A demonstration over democracy

Estimates of the death toll range from several hundred to thousands.

It has been estimated that as many as 10,000 people were arrested during and after the protests.

Several dozen people have been executed for their parts in the demonstrations.

As early as 2012 a man by the name of Wuer Kaixi, which I recommend you look up, is one of the organizers of the Tiananmen Square protest, attempted to return to China by turning himself over to the Chinese embassy in Washington, DC. The embassy refused to answer the door.

Until you come to grips with understanding the difference between a government using the global market to make revenue versus individuals having the freedom to do the same, there is no reason to further this discussion. Communism is not dead.
 
Anthony60 said:
Doesn't it just make you sick to your stomach, what Obama has done? People fighting, hoping for Castro to finally be gone and a chance at some sort of freedom. People that have escaped and come here that want their country to be freed. The poor people, living under this regime all these years. And then, under cut by our amateur in the White House. He throws a lifeline to his beloved communist buddies. Just horrible, I feel bad for them.
Click to expand...


Heya Anthony. :2wave: Well.....he is a democrat. So you know what happens when one doesn't read a bill. Yet signs it to look good for the cameras.



The $1.1 trillion spending bill enacted last week, for example, contains Cuba-related provisions in its roughly 1,600 pages, including a prohibition against funds for U.S. agriculture programs from being used to directly finance or provide assistance to Cuba and a handful of other countries.....snip~
 
JasperL said:
I'm not sure what your point is - nothing there to show the great successes of our 50 year policy with Cuba...
Click to expand...

Oh, but it does show what Castro was doing from 96 til now, including shooting down two US Civilian aircraft killing four US Citizens. But then that doesn't matter much anymore, huh?

Nor stopping any journalists and writers from reporting human rights violations. Just some more Forget me Nots, Right?
 
vesper said:
Until you come to grips with understanding the difference between a government using the global market to make revenue versus individuals having the freedom to do the same, there is no reason to further this discussion. Communism is not dead.
Click to expand...

As we've understood the term, it is dead, which is why all 500 of the Fortune 500 almost surely have large business interests in China.
 
MMC said:
Oh, but it does show what Castro was doing from 96 til now, including shooting down two US Civilian aircraft killing four US Citizens. But then that doesn't matter much anymore, huh?

Nor stopping any journalists and writers from reporting human rights violations. Just some more Forget me Nots, Right?
Click to expand...

I'm not defending Castro or his regime. I'm pointing out that our policy with regard to Cuba failed, for 50 years, to bring about any real change. Castro through his brother is still in power. I'm just not sure why people are so invested in maintaining something with a 50 year history of abject failure.

It's sort of like people clinging to our 40 year old War on Drugs. It's failed in every way we can measure massive failure, but goodness knows we shouldn't try something different....
 
JasperL said:
As we've understood the term, it is dead, which is why all 500 of the Fortune 500 almost surely have large business interests in China.
Click to expand...
And that explains the Chamber of Commerce giving kudos to Obama's Cuba E.O. and Amnesty E.O..

Tell me Jasper, is it dead when the lives of the those under Communist rule don't personally benefit from their governments playing the markets?
 
JasperL said:
You could certainly check the worst of those boxes if it was Saudi Arabia, including state sponsor of terrorism. I'm quite sure the average American is FAR more at risk because of wealthy Saudis sponsoring radical Islam in the ME and elsewhere than anything the Castro brothers have done in a couple decades at least - probably back to the Cuban missile crisis.
Click to expand...

Can't say that I think Saudi Arabia has anything to do with this.
 
JasperL said:
I'm not defending Castro or his regime. I'm pointing out that our policy with regard to Cuba failed, for 50 years, to bring about any real change. Castro through his brother is still in power. I'm just not sure why people are so invested in maintaining something with a 50 year history of abject failure.

It's sort of like people clinging to our 40 year old War on Drugs. It's failed in every way we can measure massive failure, but goodness knows we shouldn't try something different....
Click to expand...

Yet the policy has been based on Castro and his regime. Clinton confirmed and validated that.
 
MMC said:
Heya Anthony. :2wave: Well.....he is a democrat. So you know what happens when one doesn't read a bill. Yet signs it to look good for the cameras.



The $1.1 trillion spending bill enacted last week, for example, contains Cuba-related provisions in its roughly 1,600 pages, including a prohibition against funds for U.S. agriculture programs from being used to directly finance or provide assistance to Cuba and a handful of other countries.....snip~
Click to expand...

I think any bill that is more than 30 pages should have to wait at least a week for every 100 pages before it can be passed.
 
JoeTrumps said:
I'm not an expert on this issue, but won't this only strengthen the Castro brothers hold and power as well as legitimize their regime to the rest of the non-communist world?
Click to expand...

You pretty much nailed it.
They got everything and we got nothing (unless you count somewhat easier access to Cuban cigars).
 
vesper said:
Obama waited till Congress convened for the holidays to pull his latest E.O. move and left them totally off guard. This man is dangerous. There is no other way to put it.
Click to expand...

The Sith Lord thinks he can do whatever he wants & whenever.
 
Roadvirus said:
And that money will go to....the Castro regime.
Click to expand...

True. Do we, in the US, want to be supporting a socialistic state with our money?
I'm kinda against that, but it appears that Obama thinks otherwise.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom