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U.S., Cuba to restore diplomatic relations after 50 years

The Pope? In what way?

I think NYT this morning mentioned that negotiations had been going on for 18 months? Either there or maybe TV news last night mentioned that the Vatican had been involved in the negotiations.
 
Don't hold your breath for a pro Obama rant, he is the one perpetrating this mistake.

They are a totalitarian regime. Political prisoners. State sponsor of terrorism. Oppressive, communist dictatorship. And we should ignore that and just open an embassy in Havana? Are you kidding? I see no upside. What upside are you seeing? And don't tell me that if we are nice to them they will change. And we get what in return?

State sponsored terrorism?

Who you talking about?
 
I can see both sides of the argument on this. On the one hand opening up relations might have the same effect on Cuba as it did on China with increased commerce resulting in greater freedoms for Cubans. On the other hand it might not work out that way at all. Increased trade might only strengthen the Castro regime and do nothing for the liberty and prosperity of ordinary Cubans at all. After all, Cuba has been able to trade with most nations for many years and it has not resulted in any improvement of the lot of ordinary Cubans.

I don't know how this will turn out. However, we've made no progress from our current policy toward Cuba, so maybe it's time to change that.

One thing is certain. Cuban Americans will never get what they want. They will never get their lands and properties in Cuba back. That's never going to happen. That justice is never going to be realized. They need to be content with what they have.

After the recent Hong Kong protest which are unheard of, it's amazing that people still believe that access to information (which commerce brings) would strengthen the Castro regime. The Castros have gotten rich off Cuba for 50 years on the basis that the US was embargoing the country and making it poor. Telling the Cuban people that we're open to communication proves that to be a lie that not even the Castros can spin.
 
What does the Orlando Bosch story tell us about state-sponsored terrorism?
 
Don't hold your breath for a pro Obama rant, he is the one perpetrating this mistake.

They are a totalitarian regime. Political prisoners. State sponsor of terrorism. Oppressive, communist dictatorship. And we should ignore that and just open an embassy in Havana? Are you kidding? I see no upside. What upside are you seeing? And don't tell me that if we are nice to them they will change. And we get what in return?

What do I see? I see potential trade opportunity and warming relations with a nation 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Not because Russia trades with them, but rather because Canada, Netherlands, Spain, China, France, Germany, United Kingdom, Italy, Venezuela, and dozens of other countries all over the globe all realized a long way back that isolationism of Cuba is a failed idea. A relic of the Cold War that no longer applies. Face it, we failed to achieve any objective in isolating Cuba. We need a new direction and a Libertarian answer here is one we should consider.
 
“Is there no tyrant or anti-American center in the world that Obama will not appease for nothing in return?” - Charles Krauthammer on Cuba

Pissing off Krauthamer is just icing on the cake.

Good move Obama, keep pissing off the peanut gallery.
 
On a practical front, anything that would make fine Cuban cigars more available in the US is all the reason to restore some level of cooperation. :cool:

Although IMO Dominicans are better, not that I would know because the idea of visiting a certain unamed country to my north to try one would never cross my law abiding mind
 
What do I see? I see potential trade opportunity and warming relations with a nation 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Not because Russia trades with them, but rather because Canada, Netherlands, Spain, China, France, Germany, United Kingdom, Italy, Venezuela, and dozens of other countries all over the globe all realized a long way back that isolationism of Cuba is a failed idea. A relic of the Cold War that no longer applies. Face it, we failed to achieve any objective in isolating Cuba. We need a new direction and a Libertarian answer here is one we should consider.

So, we should trade with them because other countries do? The Castros are near the end of their lives, we have been embargoing them for 50 plus years. Why on Earth would we throw that away now, instead of letting them die off and giving the new leaders a choice to lighten up and be a freer country?

And again, what is the upside, you didn't put one in your response.
 
So, we should trade with them because other countries do? The Castros are near the end of their lives, we have been embargoing them for 50 plus years. Why on Earth would we throw that away now, instead of letting them die off and giving the new leaders a choice to lighten up and be a freer country?

And again, what is the upside, you didn't put one in your response.

Throw what away? What have we won?

The Castros being at the end of their lives does not suggest all of a sudden Cuba will change, nor does it claim that we were ever successful in our embargo of Cuba forcing them to make a change. In fact it proves my point that our policy failed.

And I told you the upside. Potential trade and better relations with a neighbor.
 
Broken by your standards?

Broken by most people's standards. Certainly by progressive standards, and since Obama is a supposed to be a progressive president, he should use his lawful authority to make progressive changes in policy. Don't like it? Put forth a better candidate and have them win an election.
 
Once again, Obama has caved to an enemy and gotten absolutely nothing in return.

You could buy a Cadillac from this guy for bag of Funyuns and a 40-ounce.

This thread is hilarious. It's like a big, Communist group hug. The Cubans here in the states are mortified.
 
I don't see how you can make the leap that the decision about Cuba, agree or not, is a reflection of his "petulance," or childish, which implies that there was no serious reason to change a 50 year failed policy with Cuba. It's a big deal, the biggest change in Cuban relations in most of our lifetimes, will ultimately affect 11 million or so in Cuba and millions more exiles in this country, involved many months of negotiations that involved your country and the Vatican. Was the Pope "childish and petulant" for getting involved? If not, then explain how the Pope can have serious reasons to insert himself, but those same reasons don't apply to Obama.

Obama's part is petulant and irresponsible because a complete and serious rapprochement between Cuba and America can only be permanently accomplished through Congressional action. All Obama has done is poke a stick in the eye of those he claims are obstuctionists. And he does it also by releasing admitted "terrorist" who were involved in the downing of an American plane killing a couple of American pilots to add insult.

Sure the Pope could be involved. But an adult in the Oval Office would have done this above board, with Congressional support from both sides of the aisle and with the full knowledge and blessing of the American people. This is the same two bit side show that Obama's "immigration" executive order accomplished - a temporary pressure move that will likely end up just exacerbating any cooperation that may have been had between Republicans and Democrats in Congress over the next two years.
 
Obama's part is petulant and irresponsible because a complete and serious rapprochement between Cuba and America can only be permanently accomplished through Congressional action. All Obama has done is poke a stick in the eye of those he claims are obstuctionists. And he does it also by releasing admitted "terrorist" who were involved in the downing of an American plane killing a couple of American pilots to add insult.

Well the GOP has been more "obstructionist" than any Congress in history, with legislation, and judicial and executive branch appointments, and has showed no interest in cooperating with the WH on anything except perhaps more wars or something.

Sure the Pope could be involved. But an adult in the Oval Office would have done this above board, with Congressional support from both sides of the aisle and with the full knowledge and blessing of the American people. This is the same two bit side show that Obama's "immigration" executive order accomplished - a temporary pressure move that will likely end up just exacerbating any cooperation that may have been had between Republicans and Democrats in Congress over the next two years.

Good point because working with Congress etc. on Cuba has worked so well in the past....oh yeah, we've had the same failed policy for 50 years because political cowards in Congress don't want to vote for normalizing relations with Cuba for the reason we see on this thread - coddling dictators, etc.

Also, too, there's lots of evidence the GOP is willing to work in good faith with Obama on controversial issues like Cuba..... in another reality!

So a serious person wanting to make a serious change in our relationship with Cuba at least arguably might elect the strategy we see here - multi-party negotiations over many months, including with the participation of the Vatican, which presumably is interested in human rights of the Cuban people, culminating in taking the very first step and only the first step in normalized relations. And if there is no further action on the part of Cuba towards human rights and other goals, likely the only step, quickly or potentially reversed day one of the next administration. It's a risk worth taking IMO.

But if you can't stand Obama, then I suppose it must be "childish and petulant" to choose an option other than what Charles Krauthammer suggests.
 
Once again, Obama has caved to an enemy and gotten absolutely nothing in return.

You could buy a Cadillac from this guy for bag of Funyuns and a 40-ounce.

This thread is hilarious. It's like a big, Communist group hug. The Cubans here in the states are mortified.

Well those sanctions have worked so well in getting rid of the Castros, just like the sanctions against North Korea have made that country a democracy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
Throw what away? What have we won?

The Castros being at the end of their lives does not suggest all of a sudden Cuba will change, nor does it claim that we were ever successful in our embargo of Cuba forcing them to make a change. In fact it proves my point that our policy failed.

And I told you the upside. Potential trade and better relations with a neighbor.

Gee, what an upside. Trade with Cuba. Big deal. Who do you think will benefit from that? The people, or their dictators and army? Is that worth it? That's a hard decision?

And tell me, what did we get back? More freedoms for the Cuban people? Opening up the country? Maybe cut back on the human rights violations? I thought Obama and the left were oh so concerned about torture and treating people well. But now Obama will overlook that in Cuba's case?

There is no upside. That is why every President kept the embargo going. We never had one this clueless in office before. The Castros must be laughing at us.

"What, the U.S. is lifting the embargo? Oh, no! What did we have to give up for that? HUH? NOTHING? LOL!"
 
Obama's part is petulant and irresponsible because a complete and serious rapprochement between Cuba and America can only be permanently accomplished through Congressional action. All Obama has done is poke a stick in the eye of those he claims are obstuctionists. And he does it also by releasing admitted "terrorist" who were involved in the downing of an American plane killing a couple of American pilots to add insult.

Sure the Pope could be involved. But an adult in the Oval Office would have done this above board, with Congressional support from both sides of the aisle and with the full knowledge and blessing of the American people. This is the same two bit side show that Obama's "immigration" executive order accomplished - a temporary pressure move that will likely end up just exacerbating any cooperation that may have been had between Republicans and Democrats in Congress over the next two years.

Obama could introduce a non-binding resolution about the sky being blue and we'd be hearing about "Obama-sky." Any Republicans who said "Well, yes it is" would be called "RINOs"

There is no support from both sides of the aisle anymore.
 
The Castros must be laughing at us.

They always did. Sanctions didn't work there, North Korea, Iraq, Iran....how long do we wait for the sanctions to get rid of the Castros, the Kims or the mullahs?
 
I thought conservatives liked their politicians going rogue and being Mavericks.
 
With 95% of the profits going to the Castro regime.

Indeed. In fact, I've come to understand I may like Cuban cigars only because they are forbidden fruit, and a premium Honduran or Dominican label is just as good, if not better. Screw Castro and his cheap cigars I lust after.
 
I missed where Cuba has now a want to become a functioning Democracy.... when did that happen?
 
Although IMO Dominicans are better, not that I would know because the idea of visiting a certain unamed country to my north to try one would never cross my law abiding mind

Exactly. I would never think of switching ring bands with legal cigars in order to bring Cuban cigars back through Customs after visiting certain border countries North, and South of me. Just wouldn't be prudent.
 
I missed where Cuba has now a want to become a functioning Democracy.... when did that happen?

I think it must have been about the same time other nations with which we have diplomatic and trade relations became democracies.

The cold war ended 23 years ago. We won. It's time to celebrate its end.
 
Haha! After the way this president has been treated I think he wakes up every day thinking of different ways he can piss off the Conservatives. And it's working
 
Haha! After the way this president has been treated I think he wakes up every day thinking of different ways he can piss off the Conservatives. And it's working

You know, you may be right.

It's also possible he wakes up every day thinking of different ways he can get the little Skippy's and Scooters who shiver in delight at the thought of him to dash about praising his accomplishments. No question that is working!
 
You know, you may be right.

It's also possible he wakes up every day thinking of different ways he can get the little Skippy's and Scooters who shiver in delight at the thought of him to dash about praising his accomplishments. No question that is working!
Well I hope he keeps it up because I'm having a ball with all this skipping and scootin.
 
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