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Sydney siege: Hostages held in Lindt cafe[W:49]

Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

Grant said:
Yes, they always condemn the attacks after they're completed. That's become part of their MO. But the problem is what to do before these attacks occur.
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Which they ALSO do.. just because you dont see it, does not mean it aint there..
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

PeteEU said:
Actually they do it before the fact also.. quite often but they dont exactly announce such things. Just because you dont read it on highly anti-Muslim western media, does not mean it does not happen.
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I read a lot of pro Islam media and don't see it much there either, unless they're murdered for trying to leave Islam. Do you have a link?


Half of their priests would be in jail and most of their flock would be on religious trial for moral corruption. .. :)
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Do you have any evidence to support this claim? In fact you should be giving links to every assertion you make. Your 'Muslims good, Jews and Catholics bad' meme wore out long ago.
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

PeteEU said:
Actually they do it before the fact also.. quite often but they dont exactly announce such things. Just because you dont read it on highly anti-Muslim western media, does not mean it does not happen.
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But they can make a point of announcing it. Nothing stops them from calling a press conference of sorts and announcing that as their official policy. Nothing says they have to announce every time they throw an extremist out, just that they actually do it. It's just that whenever these crazies do something insane, you almost always find out that they were a member of the religious community in good standing.

Half of their priests would be in jail and most of their flock would be on religious trial for moral corruption. .. :)
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And that's a bad thing how? Clearly the RCC doesn't give a damn if their priests molest kids, except for all the money they have to keep shelling out in settlements, but they know their congregations will keep on filling up the buckets of cash.
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

Papa bull said:
The guy that attacked Gabby Gifford wasn't a terrorist and the only people calling him terrorists are liberals that want to desensitize everyone to the meaning of the word by using it willy-nilly for any violent act.
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Wait a minute.. he went after "left wing" politicians and sympathizers and has known links to the right wing and right wing views... Did he attack Gifford and the others because of their political views? yes.. hence it is a terrorist attack and he is a terrorist.
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

PeteEU said:
Wait a minute.. he went after "left wing" politicians and sympathizers and has known links to the right wing and right wing views... Did he attack Gifford and the others because of their political views? yes.. hence it is a terrorist attack and he is a terrorist.
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Oh, give it a feckin' break. If I punched you in the mouth because I despise your pinko politics, it wouldn't be "terrorism". It would just be me engaging in assault and battery; a crime, but not feckin' terrorism. You lefties need to get a grip on reality. Every incident that involves violence and politics isn't "Terrorism" no matter how much it suits your agenda to try to render the word meaningless.
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

youngturk said:
Sorry,I don't see any Muslims speaking out.
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You need to pay more attention then. I'll just repost from another thread on this topic.

There was a joint prayer session that included an Imam, a Rabbi and a priest at Lakemba Mosque last night too. I imagine the radicals weren't thrilled about that show of unity either.

Ah well, too bad.


Sydney siege: Grand Mufti of Australia condemns Martin Place attack

Muslim community 'shocked' by Sydney cafe siege, say 'misguided' individuals misrepresenting faith - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/25780040/australian-muslim-groups-condemn-sydney-cafe-siege/

Australian Muslims condemn 'madman' gunman as #illridewithyou trends | SBS News

"The guy was a total outcast," said Australian Iranian man Yavar Tayebi. "No one in our community, none of the Iranian Shiites, wanted a bar of him."

"You take one look and think, he is an idiot," said Sheik Mousselmani, President of the Supreme Islamic Shia Council of Australia, who warned Federal Police about Monis in 2008. "Nothing about him added up."


Martin Place gunman deranged, deluded and dangerous
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Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

youngturk said:
How is that hashtag going to make everything better?We won't be talking about it tomorrow.

Muslims can destroy Islamophobia only if they protest extremism.Sorry,I don't see any Muslims speaking out.Islam desperately needs a reform.
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Like most hashtag campaigns, one likely won't see big results. But what is important is that Australia's Muslim Leaders condemned the hostage event as it was underway.

From BBC coverage:

04:10: The Grand Mufti of Australia has issued a statement in which he condemns the siege in Martin Place.

"The Grand Mufti and the Australian National Imams Council condemn this criminal act unequivocally and reiterate that such actions are denounced in part and in whole in Islam.

"His Eminence the Grand Mufti, the Australian National Imams Council and the Muslim community express their full support and solidarity with their victims and their families and aspire to a peaceful resolve to this calamity."

I do agree with you that more influential Muslim clerics worldwide need to take more forceful stands against such acts.
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

Grant said:
Muslims have no no connection to attacks from Muslims?

When the Catholic Church tried to cover up the molestation of children many Catholics quit in disgust, yet nothing similar appears to be happening in Islam. Christians are being slaughtered by Muslims in Africa, for example, and there have been no Muslims marching in the streets asking that it be stopped.

Yes, innocent and law abiding citizens should not be vilified for their faith, unless that 'faith' is subjugating and oppressing human rights and freedoms and the bodies start piling up. Sometimes 'faith' is overrated and beliefs simply nonsense. We all know that.

People must expect to be responsible for their beliefs, and what group they belong to, or expect criticism. This is just the way it works in the adult world and Muslims should either be prepared for it, or do something positive about it. But playing the victim card when it is members of their faith creating international terrorism is not a ploy that can continue indefinitely.
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My point was that there are many law-abiding Muslims who are not involved in radical or extremist movements. They should not be grouped with the radical and extremist Islamists.

Like you, I believe people should more widely speak out about oppressive and brutal practices, whether such practices originate from religious or secular ideologies. On that point, we don't disagree.
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

PeteEU said:
Wait a minute.. he went after "left wing" politicians and sympathizers and has known links to the right wing and right wing views... Did he attack Gifford and the others because of their political views? yes.. hence it is a terrorist attack and he is a terrorist.
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That was proven false long ago.
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

donsutherland1 said:
My point was that there are many law-abiding Muslims who are not involved in radical or extremist movements. They should not be grouped with the radical and extremist Islamists.
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I can't see why not. We were fighting Germans in WWII and didn't differentiate beween good' Germans or 'bad' Germans. The same applies to every war, or group of people.

A decade ago we might have sympathized with those whose fellow adherents were committing horrific crimes in Allah's name but not so much now. That excuse has long worn thin with no progress being made. In fact Islamism is growing and becoming more powerful, as we can see through the Middle East, Africa and Asia. Muslims are consistently the first ones to gain sympathy whenever these terrorist acts occur, and that's grown stale. Time to start blaming the source.

Like you, I believe people should more widely speak out about oppressive and brutal practices, whether such practices originate from religious or secular ideologies. On that point, we don't disagree.
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Do it and you'll be called an "Islamophobe". Are you morally prepared for these put downs and heartaches???:)
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

donsutherland1 said:
I do agree with you that more influential Muslim clerics worldwide need to take more forceful stands against such acts.
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The problem is that many of the more influential Muslim clerics worldwide are the ones calling for extremism! They're the ones declaring fatwas left and right, calling for people to be put to death for drawing cartoons they don't like or writing books they don't like or doing things to their stupid book. Those people are the problem! What needs to happen, and this simply doesn't, is that these extremists need to be officially de-frocked or de-turbaned or whatever so that they are no longer seen as officially recognized Muslim clerics. They need to be bounced out on their ass. It won't stop them from finding followers but it will show that Islam doesn't want them around.

Unfortunately, in the largest Muslim populations in the world, Islam *DOES* want them around!
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

Papa bull said:
Oh, give it a feckin' break. If I punched you in the mouth because I despise your pinko politics, it wouldn't be "terrorism". It would just be me engaging in assault and battery; a crime, but not feckin' terrorism. You lefties need to get a grip on reality. Every incident that involves violence and politics isn't "Terrorism" no matter how much it suits your agenda to try to render the word meaningless.
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And the right wing alternative universe syndrome continues. The attack against Gifford was and always will be terrorism, just as the attack in Oklahoma or Austin was a terrorist attack or the gun rampage in Texas last month by a Christian right wing terrorist. When an attack is politically motivated then it is terror .. or dont the same rules apply just because the attackers are right wing and not muslim? Are you admitting to being a hypocrite?
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

Serenity said:
You need to pay more attention then. I'll just repost from another thread on this topic.

There was a joint prayer session that included an Imam, a Rabbi and a priest at Lakemba Mosque last night too. I imagine the radicals weren't thrilled about that show of unity either.

Ah well, too bad.


Sydney siege: Grand Mufti of Australia condemns Martin Place attack

Muslim community 'shocked' by Sydney cafe siege, say 'misguided' individuals misrepresenting faith - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/25780040/australian-muslim-groups-condemn-sydney-cafe-siege/

Australian Muslims condemn 'madman' gunman as #illridewithyou trends | SBS News
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I appreciate it but we won't see a change unless politicians,leaders and crowds speak out.

People tend to misunderstand when I criticize Muslims,I'm not saying Muslims are horrible creatures cheering for the massacre of innocents.But let's be honest,a hashtag or a prayer session won't make a change.Islam needs a reform,it'll convince me when I see Muslims in action.
 
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Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

PeteEU said:
And the right wing alternative universe syndrome continues. The attack against Gifford was and always will be terrorism, just as the attack in Oklahoma or Austin was a terrorist attack or the gun rampage in Texas last month by a Christian right wing terrorist. When an attack is politically motivated then it is terror .. or dont the same rules apply just because the attackers are right wing and not muslim? Are you admitting to being a hypocrite?
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You really don't comprehend the meaning of terrorism. You're smart enough but I guess it just suits your political agenda to expand "terrorism" as much as possible.

If the purpose of COORDINATED violence against RANDOM CIVILIANS isn't to intimidate a POPULACE for political or religious goals, it's not terrorism. It's just people acting badly. Some Right wing Christian nutcase going on a killing spree isn't terrorism. The Gifford assassination attempt wasn't terrorism. He wasn't trying to terrorize the population into submission. He just wanted to kill Gifford.
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

Papa bull said:
You really don't comprehend the meaning of terrorism. You're smart enough but I guess it just suits your political agenda to expand "terrorism" as much as possible.
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Oh I fully understand the meaning of terrorism... to terrorize civilians populations.

If the purpose of COORDINATED violence against RANDOM CIVILIANS isn't to intimidate a POPULACE for political or religious goals, it's not terrorism.
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So you are basically saying that the shootings of Jews in Europe was not terror, that this Australian attack was not terror and that we in fact have not had much terror for the last 40 years, because much of that is in fact.. not coordinated.

It's just people acting badly.
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People acting badly......

Some Right wing Christian nutcase going on a killing spree isn't terrorism.
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And yet there is a specific political motive and there is certainly being committed terror against random civilians.. but because it is not coordinated then it is not terror?

The Gifford assassination attempt wasn't terrorism. He wasn't trying to terrorize the population into submission.
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Oh yea, he was just trying to terrorize the part of the population that had "left wing" views eh? As long as it is not the whole population then it is not terror?

He just wanted to kill Gifford.
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Why did he want to kill Gifford?
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

Cephus said:
The problem is that many of the more influential Muslim clerics worldwide are the ones calling for extremism! They're the ones declaring fatwas left and right, calling for people to be put to death for drawing cartoons they don't like or writing books they don't like or doing things to their stupid book. Those people are the problem! What needs to happen, and this simply doesn't, is that these extremists need to be officially de-frocked or de-turbaned or whatever so that they are no longer seen as officially recognized Muslim clerics. They need to be bounced out on their ass. It won't stop them from finding followers but it will show that Islam doesn't want them around.

Unfortunately, in the largest Muslim populations in the world, Islam *DOES* want them around!
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Exactly. Saying the Imams should stop talking about violence against non-Muslims would be like telling western leaders to stop talking about equality and human rights. Islamic leaders are wired a certain way and strongly believe in what they are saying, just as those who support education for girls, protection for women and Gays, etc, believe in what they're saying.

They preach to the vulnerable and the less sophisticated, and have enjoyed some success, keeping in mind that they needn't be successful too often to create terror in the democratic communities. And yes, Muslims are not turning in those Imams who are preaching hate. Most have an us against them attitude even if they don't necessarily support terrorism. We an see it often enough on these boards in fact.
 
Fenton said:
Its not about more Guns, its simply about the Right to defend ourselves.

In Americas case that right is inalienable, God given.

Its willful ignorance to think for one second that more Gun laws lead to a safer society.

Especially in America where we don't control our Southern Border.
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Now its god that annoints you with a gun. Talk about propaganda-ish talking points.
 
apdst said:
You think the lack of school house shootings is a direct result of banning guns?
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You think more guns means less shootings?
 
Re: Islamist terrorist takes 13 hostages in Australia

PeteEU said:
And the right wing alternative universe syndrome continues. The attack against Gifford was and always will be terrorism, just as the attack in Oklahoma or Austin was a terrorist attack or the gun rampage in Texas last month by a Christian right wing terrorist. When an attack is politically motivated then it is terror .. or dont the same rules apply just because the attackers are right wing and not muslim? Are you admitting to being a hypocrite?
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The Gifford shooting wasn't politically motivated.
 
apdst said:
Fewet guns didn't prevent this. Did it?
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Are you saying fewer guns caused this to happen?

P.S. I like your dodge of always answering questions with a question as a debate method... I mean instead of offering anything of substance. So I'll join you in this coy empty debate ploy of yours.
 
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poweRob said:
Are you saying fewer guns cause this to happen?

P.S. I like your dodge method of always answering questions with a question as a debate method. Instead of offering anything of substance so I'll join you in this coy empty debate ploy of yours.
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Is that what I said? It's not, is it?
 
apdst said:
Is that what I said? It's not, is it?
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Are you ever going to say anything? Or just run around posing irrelevant questions?

Better yet... Do explain to us... What the hell is it are you actually saying?
 
poweRob said:
Are you ever going to say anything? Or just run around posing irrelevant questions?

Better yet... Do explain to us... What the hell is it you actually are saying?
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I'm posting irrelevant questions? :lamo
 
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