Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

Not when all competitors have the same cost increases

Click to expand...

Sure. When you find that mythical world where all businesses are exactly the same, let us know

The only way that we would lose competitiveness is against foreign labor, but that foreign labor doesn't compete for min wage jobs in the US. Someone in China can't flip burgers in the US.

Click to expand...

Nope. But Illegal aliens who can get paid under the table are available .

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

cpwill said:

Sure. When you find that mythical world where all businesses are exactly the same, let us know

Click to expand...

I think it's safe to assume that Burger King and McDonald's both pay their employees in the same range.

Nope. But Illegal aliens who can get paid under the table are available .

Click to expand...

Then maybe we should do something about the illegal alien issue.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

I think it's safe to assume that Burger King and McDonald's both pay their employees in the same range.

Click to expand...

....and are not the only businesses that compete with each other. And are not the same. As I think we've hammered out before, MW increases is really a way to force low-income labor to subsidize higher-income labor.

Then maybe we should do something about the illegal alien issue.

Click to expand...

Concur. Then we're going to have the problem that many Americans have become used to government sustenance and leisure as a replacement for difficult or low-social-status work.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

Not really. Studies on previous increases in minimum wage pretty much 100% concluded that increasing min wage did not cause unemployment

Click to expand...

:raises eyebrow:


National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 12663: Studies that focus on low-wage workers provide relatively overwhelming evidence that minimum wage increases result in strong disemployment effects

National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 18681: Utilizing proper control groups leads to stronger disemployment effects; the evidence shows that minimum wage increases still represent a trade-off between higher wages for some and unemployment for others

National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 19262: We find that the minimum wage reduces net job growth, with the most pronounced effects on younger and low-wage workers

National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 6127: The Evidence indicates that Minimum Wage Increases mostly redistribute resources among the low wage demographics, with slightly more people falling into poverty due to the lost income of disemployment than rising out of it due to income increases.



Increasing minimum wage does, in fact, kick people out of the workforce. Which is precisely what it was intended to do.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

cpwill said:

:raises eyebrow:


National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 12663: Studies that focus on low-wage workers provide relatively overwhelming evidence that minimum wage increases result in strong disemployment effects

National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 18681: Utilizing proper control groups leads to stronger disemployment effects; the evidence shows that minimum wage increases still represent a trade-off between higher wages for some and unemployment for others

National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 19262: We find that the minimum wage reduces net job growth, with the most pronounced effects on younger and low-wage workers

National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 6127: The Evidence indicates that Minimum Wage Increases mostly redistribute resources among the low wage demographics, with slightly more people falling into poverty due to the lost income of disemployment than rising out of it due to income increases.



Increasing minimum wage does, in fact, kick people out of the workforce. Which is precisely what it was intended to do.

Click to expand...

Lawrence F. Katz and Alan B. Krueger, “The Effect of the Minimum Wage on the Fast Food Industry,” Industrial Relations Section, Princeton University, February 1992.

David Card, “Using Regional Variation in Wages to Measure the Effects of the Federal Minimum Wage,” Industrial and Labor Relations Review, October 1992.

David Card and Alan Krueger, Myth and Measurement: The New Economics of the Minimum Wage (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1995).

David Card and Alan B. Krueger, “Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast-Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania: Reply,” American Economic Review, December 2000 (in this reply, Card and Krueger update earlier findings and refute critics).

Jared Bernstein and John Schmitt, Economic Policy Institute, Making Work Pay: The Impact of the 1996-97 Minimum Wage Increase, 1998.

Jerold Waltman, Allan McBride and Nicole Camhout, “Minimum Wage Increases and the Business Failure Rate,” Journal of Economic Issues, March 1998.

A Report by the National Economic Council, The Minimum Wage: Increasing the Reward for Work, March 2000.

Holly Sklar, Laryssa Mykyta and Susan Wefald, Raise The Floor: Wages and Policies That Work For All Of Us (Boston: South End Press, 2001/2002), Ch. 4 and pp. 102-08.

Marilyn P. Watkins, Economic Opportunity Institute, “Still Working Well: Washington’s Minimum Wage and the Beginnings of Economic Recovery,” January 21, 2004.

Amy Chasanov, Economic Policy Institute, No Longer Getting By: An Increase in the Minimum Wage is Long Overdue, May 2004.

Fiscal Policy Institute, States with Minimum Wages above the Federal Level Have Had Faster Small Business and Retail Job Growth, March 2006 (update of 2004 report).

John Burton and Amy Hanauer, Center for American Progress and Policy Matters Ohio, Good for Business: Small Business Growth and State Minimum Wages, May 2006.

Paul K. Sonn, Citywide Minimum Wage Laws: A New Policy Tool for Local Governments, (originally published by Brennan Center for Justice) National Employment Law Project, May 2006, includes a good summary of impact research.

Liana Fox, Economic Policy Institute, Minimum Wage Trends: Understanding past and contemporary research, November 8, 2006.

Paul Wolfson, Economic Policy Institute, State Minimum Wages: A Policy That Works, November 27, 2006.

Arindrajit Dube, Suresh Naidu and Michael Reich, “The Economic Effects of a Citywide Minimum Wage,” Industrial & Labor Relations Review, July 2007.

Jerold L. Waltman, Minimum Wage Policy in Great Britain and the United States (New York: Algora, 2008), pp. 17-19, 132-136, 151-162, 178-180.

Sylvia Allegretto, Arindrajit Dube and Michael Reich, Do Minimum Wages Really Reduce Teen Employment?, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, Univ. of CA, Berkeley, June 28, 2008.

Michael F. Thompson, Indiana Business Research Center, “Minimum Wage Impacts on Employment: A Look at Indiana, Illinois and Surrounding Midwestern States,” Indiana Business Review, Fall 2008.

Hristos Doucouliagos and T. D. Stanley, "Publication Selection Bias in Minimum-Wage Research? A Meta-Regression Analysis," British Journal of Industrial Relations, vol. 47, no. 2, 2009.

Sylvia Allegretto, Arindrajit Dube and Michael Reich, Spacial Heterogeneity and Minimum Wages: Employment Estimates for Teens Using Cross-State Commuting Zones, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, Univ. of CA, Berkeley, June 25, 2009.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

Lawrence F. Katz and Alan B. Krueger, “The Effect of the Minimum Wage on the Fast Food Industry,” Industrial Relations Section, Princeton University, February 1992.

David Card, “Using Regional Variation in Wages to Measure the Effects of the Federal Minimum Wage,” Industrial and Labor Relations Review, October 1992.

David Card and Alan Krueger, Myth and Measurement: The New Economics of the Minimum Wage (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1995).

David Card and Alan B. Krueger, “Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast-Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania: Reply,” American Economic Review, December 2000 (in this reply, Card and Krueger update earlier findings and refute critics).

Jared Bernstein and John Schmitt, Economic Policy Institute, Making Work Pay: The Impact of the 1996-97 Minimum Wage Increase, 1998.

Jerold Waltman, Allan McBride and Nicole Camhout, “Minimum Wage Increases and the Business Failure Rate,” Journal of Economic Issues, March 1998.

A Report by the National Economic Council, The Minimum Wage: Increasing the Reward for Work, March 2000.

Holly Sklar, Laryssa Mykyta and Susan Wefald, Raise The Floor: Wages and Policies That Work For All Of Us (Boston: South End Press, 2001/2002), Ch. 4 and pp. 102-08.

Marilyn P. Watkins, Economic Opportunity Institute, “Still Working Well: Washington’s Minimum Wage and the Beginnings of Economic Recovery,” January 21, 2004.

Amy Chasanov, Economic Policy Institute, No Longer Getting By: An Increase in the Minimum Wage is Long Overdue, May 2004.

Fiscal Policy Institute, States with Minimum Wages above the Federal Level Have Had Faster Small Business and Retail Job Growth, March 2006 (update of 2004 report).

John Burton and Amy Hanauer, Center for American Progress and Policy Matters Ohio, Good for Business: Small Business Growth and State Minimum Wages, May 2006.

Paul K. Sonn, Citywide Minimum Wage Laws: A New Policy Tool for Local Governments, (originally published by Brennan Center for Justice) National Employment Law Project, May 2006, includes a good summary of impact research.

Liana Fox, Economic Policy Institute, Minimum Wage Trends: Understanding past and contemporary research, November 8, 2006.

Paul Wolfson, Economic Policy Institute, State Minimum Wages: A Policy That Works, November 27, 2006.

Arindrajit Dube, Suresh Naidu and Michael Reich, “The Economic Effects of a Citywide Minimum Wage,” Industrial & Labor Relations Review, July 2007.

Jerold L. Waltman, Minimum Wage Policy in Great Britain and the United States (New York: Algora, 2008), pp. 17-19, 132-136, 151-162, 178-180.

Sylvia Allegretto, Arindrajit Dube and Michael Reich, Do Minimum Wages Really Reduce Teen Employment?, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, Univ. of CA, Berkeley, June 28, 2008.

Michael F. Thompson, Indiana Business Research Center, “Minimum Wage Impacts on Employment: A Look at Indiana, Illinois and Surrounding Midwestern States,” Indiana Business Review, Fall 2008.

Hristos Doucouliagos and T. D. Stanley, "Publication Selection Bias in Minimum-Wage Research? A Meta-Regression Analysis," British Journal of Industrial Relations, vol. 47, no. 2, 2009.

Sylvia Allegretto, Arindrajit Dube and Michael Reich, Spacial Heterogeneity and Minimum Wages: Employment Estimates for Teens Using Cross-State Commuting Zones, Institute for Research on Labor and Employment, Univ. of CA, Berkeley, June 25, 2009.

Click to expand...

Couldn't help but notice none of this is linked or sourced - you copy this list from somewhere?

I also can't help but notice a high prevalence of advocacy organizations among those producing the research you are citing. Shall I cite CATO or Heritage in response?

Look at the bolded (chosen at random) for example:

Amy Chasanov, Economic Policy Institute, No Longer Getting By: An Increase in the Minimum Wage is Long Overdue, May 2004.


Not only is this historically illiterate (the MW was originally conceived as a means of pricing blacks and asians out of competition), this is just a re-hash of the "you can't raise a family of four on the minimum wage" argument, not a study that "100% concluded that increasing min wage did not cause unemployment". Did you check out this list of sources before you posted it?

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Kushinator said:

I was unaware you were concerned with people who choose not to prepare themselves the the modern economy.

Click to expand...

Why wouldn't that be a concern? People have to start somewhere...

It is highly unlikely people enter the labor force to earn the lowest amount possible.

Click to expand...

They don't intend to enter the labour force for low wage work, but that is the end result. People without skills and experience earn lower paying jobs until they build up that experience.

The "you are getting paid with training" model is ripe with exploitation.

Click to expand...

Its also one of the few ways to get your foot in the door with experience. The alternative is spending years in school for a degree.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

sangha said:

Only the deluded or the hopelessly partisan think that MW #'s are based on "what sounds good"

Click to expand...

Every time the topic arises the minimum wage is often referenced to what other nations have as their minimum wage. I don't see how that isn't an appeal to 'what sounds good.'

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:

Every time the topic arises the minimum wage is often referenced to what other nations have as their minimum wage. I don't see how that isn't an appeal to 'what sounds good.'

Click to expand...

Comparative analysis is a perfectly logical and rational way of evaluating anything. People who refused to make comparisons likely do so because they are afraid that what they may find doesn't match their ideology.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

sangha said:

Implementing a MW didn't eliminate child labor either.

The National Labor Standards Act was passed in order to address the economic problems of the time which was not "child labor"

Click to expand...

I'm sure that is probably what you learned in secondary school, but there were other programs that were geared towards addressing economic problems at the time. FLSA was drafted precisely to handle the issues of wages and the effect it had on child labour in the marketplace. Adults wanted jobs to go to adult labourers. Children in the marketplace got in the way of that.

And there are plenty of books written about how the lunar landing was a hoax too.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about peer reviewed scholarly text dating back from the 1930s, which are considered more empirical accounts than your 'lunar landings.' This information is also referenced and cited on the history network.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

Comparative analysis is a perfectly logical and rational way of evaluating anything.

Click to expand...

When it comes to the minimum wage, it would show why it isn't necessarily the greatest idea.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

sangha said:

You don't seem to understand what you read so I don't see how posting something for you to read is going to remedy the lack of understanding you are demonstrating

Click to expand...

I'm not asking you to do anything for me. I'm asking you to refer to the place where you see your information.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Boo Radley said:

Only, I think many are easy to follow, and having questions isn't a disqualifer. Particularly if we haven't kept up with inflation, for example.

Click to expand...

Okay, and how does increasing the minimum wage fix that?

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:

So what you're saying is, if I write a book about economics, you'll believe every word of it?



I've been totally wasting my time on these darn forums!

Click to expand...

Only if it was peer reviewed, as all books, journals and articles on economics are.

What distinguishable qualifications do you have that would demonstrate your standards of quality, performance and credibility associated with the peer review process, aside from wasting your time on these 'darn forums?'

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:

When it comes to the minimum wage, it would show why it isn't necessarily the greatest idea.

Click to expand...

Countries with a higher minimum wage (government mandated, or socially mandated) tend to be richer countries, and countries with no min wage or a very low min wage tend to be very poor. At least that's what I see when I look at charts and comparisons.

Do you see something that I'm not seeing?

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

LOL. As usual, a radical lib who demands things from others they won't do for themselves. You asked a question about experience in a national economy. What lame and loaded question. Something a child might ask.

I've managed to start a company that ended up doing billions in sales over 25 years, and had manufacturing facilities in multiple states. I sold my final interest a few years back, and now I own a company that manufactures products sold in every state, and in other parts of the world. My experience is not only national, but global.

What is your experience?

Click to expand...

No, that doesn't do it. You are not doing what you said you do, and don't have experience running a national economy. Nor do I. Sure, I have a small company. Sell nationally. But that doesn't mean I run a national economy. So, you failed.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:

Okay, and how does increasing the minimum wage fix that?

Click to expand...

Move all wages, including minimum wages to keep up with inflation. More people will spend money. More spending means more business. This helps everyone.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:

I'm not asking you to do anything for me. I'm asking you to refer to the place where you see your information.

Click to expand...

I've already told you clearly and explicitly - from the Wiki link you posted.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:

FLSA was drafted precisely to handle the issues of wages and the effect it had on child labour in the marketplace.

Click to expand...

No, it wasn't. It was drafted to handle the issue of unemployment and poverty

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:

Every time the topic arises the minimum wage is often referenced to what other nations have as their minimum wage. I don't see how that isn't an appeal to 'what sounds good.'

Click to expand...

I'll add that to the list of things you don't see.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

Countries with a higher minimum wage (government mandated, or socially mandated) tend to be richer countries, and countries with no min wage or a very low min wage tend to be very poor. At least that's what I see when I look at charts and comparisons.

Do you see something that I'm not seeing?

Click to expand...

Aside from Mexico, none of those nations have a poor standard of living. Your own chart shows that nations with high PPP adjusted minimum wages are grossly overvalued, especially the case Australia $16 dollar minimum wage and PPP adjusted $9.47 wage. This indicates that the Aussie dollar is 0.4% overvalued. As always, high cost of living is always a byproduct of higher minimum wages.

Your chart also doesn't include nations such as Germany, Hong Kong and Singapore. None of those are actually very poor nations, and they don't exactly have a minimum wage.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Boo Radley said:

Move all wages, including minimum wages to keep up with inflation. More people will spend money. More spending means more business. This helps everyone.

Click to expand...

Are you sure it helps everyone? You've done it so many times and the result seems to be the same. If anything, it has been counterintuitive.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

WallStreetVixen said:

Are you sure it helps everyone? You've done it so many times and the result seems to be the same. If anything, it has been counterintuitive.

Click to expand...

As sure as a reasonable person can be. We had it in the past, and did quite well. Things got worse, and not better, when we let it slip.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Boo Radley said:

As sure as a reasonable person can be. We had it in the past, and did quite well. Things got worse, and not better, when we let it slip.

Click to expand...

When was that? You've had 7 increases since the original FLSA and states have implemented their own minimum wage on top of that. Theres no indication that the minimum wage has keep up with inflation here, or anywhere else it has tried.

This is because the minimum wage isn't intended to do that

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

sangha said:

I've already told you clearly and explicitly - from the Wiki link you posted.

Click to expand...

Where in the link?