Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

Throw out what you think you've been taught about micro and macro economics. All such knowledge does is provide reason not to do something, or reason to think you should. Better to trust wisdom and intuition. Those who can, do, those who can't, teach economics.

Took me awhile to learn that.

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To be honest, you didn't address his point. Individual versus the entirety are two different things, no matter what label you give them. The individual solutions are not likely the same as what will help the whole of the problem.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

Then you're selling the wrong mix of crap. Production will ALWAYS exceed demand. A smart owner will find ways to DEAL WITH IT. I've managed to do that for over 30 years.

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So....if I change up the crap I'm trying to sell....people will have more money to buy it with?



Again, I fail to understand your logic.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

Throw out what you think you've been taught about micro and macro economics. All such knowledge does is provide reason not to do something, or reason to think you should. Better to trust wisdom and intuition. Those who can, do, those who can't, teach economics.

Took me awhile to learn that.

Click to expand...

So the gist of your philosophy is that "book learning ain't no good" and that we should all think with our feelings instead of logic, knowledge or reasoning.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Boo Radley said:

To be honest, you didn't address his point. Individual versus the entirety are two different things, no matter what label you give them. The individual solutions are not likely the same as what will help the whole of the problem.

Click to expand...

You, honest? LOL. Ok to be frank, I did answer the question. You apparently don't like the answer so you paint it with the same text book stuff economists are famous for being ignorant of. I provided my opinion based on experience. Economists are dreamers who don't have a clue. That's why the "Can/Do" statement applies.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:

So....if I change up the crap I'm trying to sell....people will have more money to buy it with?



Again, I fail to understand your logic.

Click to expand...

:doh

I don't know if you're just being cute, or if you really don't get it.

People will never have enough money to buy all the products a company wants to sell. That's a fact.

If you change up your crap, you might find more people with money to buy it. You can't control the amount of money people have. What you can control is how many people want to buy your product.

You mentioned hair cuts. What if the Barber teamed up with another store to offer a package deal at a better value? Both businesses benefit, the customer saves some money, and more customers come through the door. More customers, more profit, more employees. This is marketing at it's basic form.

Let me offer a real world example. Many years ago I developed a product line to help sell rotisserie chicken in supermarkets. To help introduce this new "no leak" microwavable/ovenable container, I teamed up with a major chicken producer to cross brand my packaging. The super market benefited by the advertising printed on the carry handle I was willing to pack in the case with my product, and the chicken manufacturer benefited because it branded and marketed the quality of their product. Eventually my product design and style became a staple in super markets across the nation. You see them everywhere. The competition woke up and started producing a similar design, so my exclusivity only last a few years, but that is how it goes.

I made that product at a time nobody used it. There was zero demand, and the material required to make the container hadn't been fully developed. I spent well over $1 million building the product line, building the tooling, and hiring the extra people. I created demand by gambling I was right. That is the reality of manufacturing and business growth. Throw the micro/macro blather out, it's worthless. Well, maybe not worthless, but 99% of the time, nothing but a passing thought as one applies a careful analysis of a business move.

Imagine how many people have been hired as the simple result of a singular approach to a problem; sell more chicken.

If you wait for people to come through the door, you've already locked it.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

So the gist of your philosophy is that "book learning ain't no good" and that we should all think with our feelings instead of logic, knowledge or reasoning.

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:doh

Yea, that's it. That's the gist of my philosophy. Obviously your proving what "buk lern'n" has done for you. It's clear the comprehension thing has been mightily enhanced.

The gist

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

Throw out what you think you've been taught about micro and macro economics. All such knowledge does is provide reason not to do something, or reason to think you should. Better to trust wisdom and intuition. Those who can, do, those who can't, teach economics.

Took me awhile to learn that.

Click to expand...

Me as well. Took economics at university. Taught me almost nothing that has helped in the real world.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

DA60 said:

Me as well. Took economics at university. Taught me almost nothing that has helped in the real world.

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Professors, (or their assistants who actually do most of the "teaching") want people to view their opinions as gospel, to be applied directly and forever to the student future efforts. At best, what is taught is merely a bit of additional knowledge from which to consider.

My wife is a Lawyer. What she learned in Law School had little practical application to her practice. She will tell you what she learned in law school had more to do with the mechanics of law, and not the practice of it. Same thing with economics and other business principles taught in colleges and universities. My MBA was an interesting process, but it was the mechanics involved in pursuing it that had the greatest benefit. I'm not sure I would pursue it again, if I could do it over, but it seemed to be the right thing to do at the time.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

Professors, (or their assistants who actually do most of the "teaching") want people to view their opinions as gospel, to be applied directly and forever to the student future efforts. At best, what is taught is merely a bit of additional knowledge from which to consider.

My wife is a Lawyer. What she learned in Law School had little practical application to her practice. She will tell you what she learned in law school had more to do with the mechanics of law, and not the practice of it. Same thing with economics and other business principles taught in colleges and universities. My MBA was an interesting process, but it was the mechanics involved in pursuing it that had the greatest benefit. I'm not sure I would pursue it again, if I could do it over, but it seemed to be the right thing to do at the time.

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Well, I didn't get an MBA.

But I did learn a) how to drink quite a lot of alcohol and still be able to function properly the next morning; b) it's better to live near your frat house as opposed to actually at it; c) how to pass a course while only showing up for 10 minutes every class; d) be nice to everyone but trust no one completely; e) how to talk to most prof's where I found the right balance between (fake) admiration and honesty; f) to NEVER hit on girls you have a crush on. Become their friends (if you can) and let the rest just happen; and finally) not to sweat your GPA. Unless you know EXACTLY what you want to do AND it requires a solid-high GPA, don't worry about it. Just pass everything, try not to burn any bridges and have as much fun as you can without hurting others.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

DA60 said:

Well, I didn't get an MBA.

But I did learn a) how to drink quite a lot of alcohol and still be able to function properly the next morning; b) it's better to live near your frat house as opposed to actually at it; c) how to pass a course while only showing up for 10 minutes every class; d) be nice to everyone but trust no one completely; e) how to talk to most prof's where I found the right balance between (fake) admiration and honesty; f) to NEVER hit on girls you have a crush on. Become their friends (if you can) and let the rest just happen; and finally) not to sweat your GPA. Unless you know EXACTLY what you want to do AND it requires a solid-high GPA, don't worry about it. Just pass everything, try not to burn any bridges and have as much fun as you can without hurting others.

Click to expand...

LOL. I can attest I took many of the same "classes", and gained a similar foundation of knowledge.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:

And here I thought a market crash cost all those jobs...

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I 'bout pulled what hair I have left out upon reading that moronic declaration.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

buck said:

Good thing we have studies to determine what really occurred rather than just taking what Kevin thought occurred as gospel.

This study, whether you choose to believe it or not, determined that about 15% of the lost jobs were due to the minimum wage hikes.

So while that decline may look like it was all recession, in reality it was around 15 percent due to the minimum wage, according to this paper.

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Did you purchase the study and analyze it? Or is just having a study out there to cite sufficient for you?

Most of the cited 'studies' are of loss of jobs after MW hikes. Do you supposed there are just as many 'studies' that show the contrary?

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

:doh

I don't know if you're just being cute, or if you really don't get it.

People will never have enough money to buy all the products a company wants to sell. That's a fact.

If you change up your crap, you might find more people with money to buy it. You can't control the amount of money people have. What you can control is how many people want to buy your product.

You mentioned hair cuts. What if the Barber teamed up with another store to offer a package deal at a better value? Both businesses benefit, the customer saves some money, and more customers come through the door. More customers, more profit, more employees. This is marketing at it's basic form.

Let me offer a real world example. Many years ago I developed a product line to help sell rotisserie chicken in supermarkets. To help introduce this new "no leak" microwavable/ovenable container, I teamed up with a major chicken producer to cross brand my packaging. The super market benefited by the advertising printed on the carry handle I was willing to pack in the case with my product, and the chicken manufacturer benefited because it branded and marketed the quality of their product. Eventually my product design and style became a staple in super markets across the nation. You see them everywhere. The competition woke up and started producing a similar design, so my exclusivity only last a few years, but that is how it goes.

I made that product at a time nobody used it. There was zero demand, and the material required to make the container hadn't been fully developed. I spent well over $1 million building the product line, building the tooling, and hiring the extra people. I created demand by gambling I was right. That is the reality of manufacturing and business growth. Throw the micro/macro blather out, it's worthless. Well, maybe not worthless, but 99% of the time, nothing but a passing thought as one applies a careful analysis of a business move.

Imagine how many people have been hired as the simple result of a singular approach to a problem; sell more chicken.

If you wait for people to come through the door, you've already locked it.

Click to expand...

Again, you are talking about micro-economic solutions, not macroeconomics.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

DA60 said:

But I did learn a) how to drink quite a lot of alcohol and still be able to function properly the next morning; b) it's better to live near your frat house as opposed to actually at it; c) how to pass a course while only showing up for 10 minutes every class; d) be nice to everyone but trust no one completely; e) how to talk to most prof's where I found the right balance between (fake) admiration and honesty; f) to NEVER hit on girls you have a crush on. Become their friends (if you can) and let the rest just happen; and finally) not to sweat your GPA. Unless you know EXACTLY what you want to do AND it requires a solid-high GPA, don't worry about it. Just pass everything, try not to burn any bridges and have as much fun as you can without hurting others.

Click to expand...

:applaud

Words of wisdom that should be passed on to every new college student.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

Again, you are talking about micro-economic solutions, not macroeconomics.

Click to expand...

Again, you are lost in a text book. How's that working for you?

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

You, honest? LOL. Ok to be frank, I did answer the question. You apparently don't like the answer so you paint it with the same text book stuff economists are famous for being ignorant of. I provided my opinion based on experience. Economists are dreamers who don't have a clue. That's why the "Can/Do" statement applies.

Click to expand...

No, you did not. Do you have experience with a national economy? Explain.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:

Again, you are talking about micro-economic solutions, not macroeconomics.

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Again, I am not an economist. I'm a truck driver. But, I can see how things effect my kids, my work, my investments, etc

Us working stiffs out here aren't blind, or dumb [emoji6]

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

j-mac said:

Again, I am not an economist. I'm a truck driver. But, I can see how things effect my kids, my work, my investments, etc

Us working stiffs out here aren't blind, or dumb [emoji6]

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I mean no disrespect, but cause and effect is often difficult to see. Sometimes we mistake one thing as the cause when it is really something else. This is pretty common. That is why people study economics in different ways.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

j-mac said:

Again, I am not an economist. I'm a truck driver. But, I can see how things effect my kids, my work, my investments, etc

Us working stiffs out here aren't blind, or dumb [emoji6]

Click to expand...

No, of course not.

But both micro and macro economics effects just about everything. Your kids (and mine) would be well advised to make good micro-economic choices in life. Like not spending more time and money on education than their career requires, and working hard and saving money, and not taking on stupid debt. But macro-economics also effects them, they just can't do anything about macro-economics, unless they get into a position where they have significant influence over government policy.

While micro and macro economics effect each other, individual solutions are micro-economic and may not effect the macro-economy much at all. The importance of macro-economic has to do much more with governmental policy, which can effect EVERYONE, regardless of their personal microeconomic decisions.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

CMPancake said:

Why bother with history when one can simply revision it?

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History is SUPPOSED to be revised. You get more information. People start questioning the story. Look at new information received. That kind of thing.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

stonewall50 said:

History is SUPPOSED to be revised. You get more information. People start questioning the story. Look at new information received. That kind of thing.

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But it must be based on actual new information and not just as desire to tell a different story.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

1750Texan said:

I 'bout pulled what hair I have left out upon reading that moronic declaration.

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So a recession DIDN'T cause job losses?

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

ocean515 said:

Again, you are lost in a text book. How's that working for you?

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Uh, he's not a college student, he's a business owner.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:

So a recession DIDN'T cause job losses?

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Of course it did. But the trick in such studies is to separate the impacts of the different factors.

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

joG said:

Of course it did. But the trick in such studies is to separate the impacts of the different factors.

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Sometimes that's nearly impossible. PROVE how an increase in minimum wage killed those jobs, and not the already shrinking economy causing less consumption.


You can't, you can only THEORIZE.


And if you bothered to read the ACTUAL study, and not the op ed piece linked in the OP, you would see that even more clearly, as the authors offered up not ONE, TINY, LITTLE piece of evidence to support their claim...a claim they had stated BEFORE they did the study. In other words, this study was done with the PURPOSE of proving MW killed jobs, not with the purpose of seeing IF it did or not.

That's called bad science.