• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Independent contracting does not evade minimum wage laws. There are labor lawyers just SALIVATING over this post.

It actually involves having to follow more regulations on employment than you would otherwise have to.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Which is why its destined to fail, the laws of economics don't change for politics.

There are no laws of economics. There are only theories, trends, and observations.

Name one "law" of economics that is more than a theory or an observation during a particular span of time.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

The executives I'm talking about were hired to fix the problems caused by the last group of idiot executives of Jcpenny. Instead of dealing with the problem right in their face they keep trying to boost sales using more or less the same strategy used by the last group of executives. :lol:

Which I perceive as being a problem with our entire economy, in so many ways. All of these guys prescribe to the same, or very similar theories about business management. It's why I wouldn't trust one of these guys to run a deli, let alone a multi million or billion dollar corporation. It's why i have faith in small business owners, as they are REQUIRED to not be idiots. The elite CEO's? They're gonna get paid for their time in, regardless of their success. All the idiots at JC penny got WELL compensated for their failures, I assure you.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Independent contracting does not evade minimum wage laws. There are labor lawyers just SALIVATING over this post.

Then perhaps one of them can provide a statute that says they cannot.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Correction-minimum wage is an artificial, politically imposed floor. You have admitted that price manipulation to raise labor costs can be harmful, but I still await your answer as to what CHANGES that here?

It can also be helpful. There is a point where there is an ideal economic maximizing min wage. I suspect that it is higher than our current min wage. If I am correct, then increasing min wage will be helpful to our economy. It's only if I am wrong, that increasing minimum wage would harm our economy. Naturally, I am not going to admit that I am wrong, unless I am proven to be wrong, in which case I will will take the logical step of changing my position so that I am no longer wrong.

I suspect that you wouldn't change your position, regardless of how wrong your position has been proven to be.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Then perhaps one of them can provide a statute that says they cannot.

Fair Labor and Standards Act.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Fair Labor and Standards Act.

Which part of the FLSA are you referencing specifically that states independent contractors cannot be used to circumvent minimum wage laws?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess


I picked ONE at random...


Law of demand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



And my counter to that so called "law" is ANY product ever produced that has gone up in price, but which has also increased in total sales.



Which is QUITE a lot of products.

You can focus on the middle phrase, "all things being equal", but that alone debunks the entire law, or at the least, renders said law useless, as all other things are virtually NEVER equal. No two events are ever, EVER, the same.



I find that the laws of thermodynamics applies to economics far better, and tend to give a more accurate (so far as I know) result, in terms of an answer to a question.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Which part of the FLSA are you referencing specifically that states independent contractors cannot be used to circumvent minimum wage laws?

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/scope/ee14.asp



I'll admit, it's not cut and dry, but again, that's what labor lawyers are for.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

There are no laws of economics. There are only theories, trends, and observations.

Name one "law" of economics that is more than a theory or an observation during a particular span of time.

The term law dates back to ancient times, when a law was described as something that applies to all times and places. After the scientific theory was discovered, it was realized that since there is no way to know that-that it was changed to theory.

That said, explain where supply and demand dont apply. This will be good.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

It can also be helpful. There is a point where there is an ideal economic maximizing min wage. I suspect that it is higher than our current min wage. If I am correct, then increasing min wage will be helpful to our economy. It's only if I am wrong, that increasing minimum wage would harm our economy. Naturally, I am not going to admit that I am wrong, unless I am proven to be wrong, in which case I will will take the logical step of changing my position so that I am no longer wrong.

I suspect that you wouldn't change your position, regardless of how wrong your position has been proven to be.

So where is this magical floor that YOU have determined? Why aren't businesses and employees able to determine that, as opposed to a top down one size fits all political dictate that benefits unions?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

That said, explain where supply and demand dont apply. This will be good.

Giffen and Veblen goods violate the law of demand, as they refer to an upward sloping demand curve.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/scope/ee14.asp



I'll admit, it's not cut and dry, but again, that's what labor lawyers are for.


Thanks for the effort, but you will notice that there is a link to exemptions on your source: http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/screen75.asp

In addition, only a handful of states require that tipped workers be paid anything. The end result is that in some places people pay to work there because the tips potential makes it a desirable location to work.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

So where is this magical floor that YOU have determined? Why aren't businesses and employees able to determine that, as opposed to a top down one size fits all political dictate that benefits unions?

I already admitted that I haven't determined anything.

It would be all well and good if individual businesses determined the minimum wage, assuming that they did that with the intent to result in a good macroeconomy, and not just fill their own bank accounts.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

I already admitted that I haven't determined anything.

It would be all well and good if individual businesses determined the minimum wage, assuming that they did that with the intent to result in a good macroeconomy, and not just fill their own bank accounts.

But businesses are there to make money, as are the employees. And they directly benefit the community through taxation and employment.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

It's not about forcing wages low. Its about what your employer is willing to pay for your labour. If you arbitrarily set a level that is too expensive, certain low productive, unskilled labourers will be priced out at the expense of high productive, high skill workers.

There is a reason why certain people are exempt from minimum wage laws, such as mentally handicapped people.

Your employer is "willing" to pay the absolute minimum possible.

However, the value of that labor is higher than the pay. By definition.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

But businesses are there to make money, as are the employees. And they directly benefit the community through taxation and employment.

Sure, but that doesn't negate the fact that they don't make decisions based upon what is best for a healthy macro-economy.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

A machine will pay for itself in time and considering that it will produce more than many workers combined there is no reason to think keep wages low holds of automation for long.

A machine pays for itself in time assuming that A) it is lower cost than labor and B) it is given time to do so. Artificially changing A does not make for the most productive allocation of resources. It's like saying let's jack gasoline up to $10 / gallon on the theory that that will lead us to develop alternatives - well, yes, but that doesn't mean that it would be economically beneficial.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Why does it seem so wildly inaccurate?

Because there are a multitude of employers of low-skill labor. Not a single purchaser.

Are you saying firms do not have wage making power?

Wal Mart workers in South Dakota are making $17 an hour. No. If all businesses in a given area can be demonstrated to be colluding in order to depress wages, then I suspect they can be held in violation of anti-trust law. Businesses have incentive to pay (over the long haul) as little as they can in return for the highest quality labor they can find, just as workers have incentive to maximize their return while reducing their costs.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Click on the individual links on that page. Notice that every single one has a section that explains the exceptions.

Doesn't change that there are exceptions. Call your independent contracting employee a paperboy and have them each bring you a newspaper everyday. If women will pay the business for the privilege of waiting on their ass grabbing customers all things are possible.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Sure, but that doesn't negate the fact that they don't make decisions based upon what is best for a healthy macro-economy.

Yeah its much better when politicians do it. :doh
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Because there are a multitude of employers of low-skill labor. Not a single purchaser.

You're employing the static approach. In order to understand how dynamic monopsony impacts low skilled/ low wage labor markets, we need to refer to job search frictions and exploitation of information assymetry, e.g. potential employees are typically aware of position vacancies.

Wal Mart workers in South Dakota are making $17 an hour. No. If all businesses in a given area can be demonstrated to be colluding in order to depress wages, then I suspect they can be held in violation of anti-trust law. Businesses have incentive to pay (over the long haul) as little as they can in return for the highest quality labor they can find, just as workers have incentive to maximize their return while reducing their costs.

Employers in LS/LW industries have greater bargaining power due to an information mismatch as described above.
 
Back
Top Bottom