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Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
That seems logical enough, but businesses don't act on the best behalf of the economy, they act in their own best interest.

No one business is large enough to significantly effect our macro-economy. I'm all for libertarianism when and where it works, but in this case, it can't work. That's where government comes in as a legitimate factor, when individual business doesn't provide what we need, then government can create mandates or programs that will.
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It is to their interest to employ people. Sure, it is also to their interest to speed up production, but if everyone followed lego and completely replaced everyone with machines there would be no such thing as industry. The only reason lego is able to survive is because there is industries out there that didn't follow them into the suicide chamber.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
Have you taken math? One variable MAY change others, but it does not mean they ALL change. And while change is not always bad, here its demonstrably harmful. The myths that conceal reality are exceedingly hard to overcome, the left may never learn that-but they will have to deal with the consequences.
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You should use quotes rather than color changes when doing the above...color changes prevent me from quoting you responses, making coherent debate increasingly difficult.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
So why not raise minimum wage to 50 bucks an hour?
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I will answer your question with a question....why not REDUCE minimum wage to .01 cents per hour?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

buck said:
Seems common sense to me, but i'm sure we'll still have people arguing that the CBO and this study are just wrong and it's all "win" for MW workers.

Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession
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The study is flawed since it does not take the effect of Great Recession into account. Next they will claim the recession was caused by raising the minimum wage. What a joke.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
So why not raise minimum wage to 50 bucks an hour?
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That's possible, but it's pushing the range that is possible without negative consequences.

Basically what you are doing with that argument, is you are saying that if a little of something is good, a whole lot of it must be better. Things don't work that way.

If I got home from work, and discovered that the temp in my house is 16 degrees, I would be foolish to turn up my thermostat to 120 degrees. There is a range for everything that is optimal.

We don't know exactly what this optimal range for minimum wage is, but we can make a pretty good guess. At the low end, it could be anything over $0/hr, so let's call it a penny. At the high end, it's mathematically impossible for the minimum to exceed the mean average, and the mean average amount of value produced per work hour in the US is around $60. But if we set the high end of this range at $60/hr, then everyone would make the same wage, regardless of productivity - that's a mathematical fact. There are obviously reasons why some people should be paid more than others, I think we can all agree on that. Thus, the high end of the range which contains the economic optimizing min wage can't be $60/hr. Maybe half that amount, probably more like a quarter of that amount (in the neighborhood of $15-$30/hr).
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
You seem to be describing a VERY foolish employer. The good news is, most employers are not so silly as to do this...they understand that you staff for the labor, not for the cost of the staff.Again, this implies that our hypothetical incredibly foolish employers was not already getting a decent amount of productivity out of their employees, OR that said foolish employer is now going to give more HOURS to the existing employees... According to you OWN Misis backed economic beliefs, competition would prevent this from happening.



Did you, smart guy?
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Wow, the amount of misinformation you have written is staggering. The tragic reality is it hurts those you claim to help.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
You can lead a horse to water...
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Right....see, here's the thing. I don't buy into Mises. I mean, I used to. But then I got out into the world, and stuff, and experienced life, and realized that things that look good on paper don't always work, because people don't always act in their own best self interests, regardless of what they THINK they're doing. Fundamentally, Mises is flawed, because he assumes that employers are all intelligent, rational, long seeing and thinking individuals. The truth is anything but.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
You should use quotes rather than color changes when doing the above...color changes prevent me from quoting you responses, making coherent debate increasingly difficult.
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Seems a bit entitled and lazy on your part.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
Some will change, but changing one variable does not mean they ALL change. Now we aren't even discussing basic econ but basic math. :lol:
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Econ =/= math.

Econ is more like math + psychology.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
If an employers labor expenses are raised through legislation, the employer has the options of reducing the number of hours worked by each employee, or of laying off an employee...
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There are a whole lot more options than that.

What's happening is you have a predetermined outcome which you wish to arrive at, so you limit the possibility of events in such a manner as to arrive at the outcome which you wish to arrive at.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

imagep said:
That's possible, but it's pushing the range that is possible without negative consequences.

Basically what you are doing with that argument, is you are saying that if a little of something is good, a whole lot of it must be better. Things don't work that way.

If I got home from work, and discovered that the temp in my house is 16 degrees, I would be foolish to turn up my thermostat to 120 degrees. There is a range for everything that is optimal.

We don't know exactly what this optimal range for minimum wage is, but we can make a pretty good guess. At the low end, it could be anything over $0/hr, so let's call it a penny. At the high end, it's mathematically impossible for the minimum to exceed the mean average, and the mean average amount of value produced per work hour in the US is around $60. But if we set the high end of this range at $60/hr, then everyone would make the same wage, regardless of productivity - that's a mathematical fact. There are obviously reasons why some people should be paid more than others, I think we can all agree on that. Thus, the high end of the range which contains the economic optimizing min wage can't be $60/hr. Maybe half that amount, probably more like a quarter of that amount (in the neighborhood of $15-$30/hr).
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Ah but I at least I get you to realize that changing the cost of labor can be harmful, which was my intent. Now that we have established that, explain why this phenomenon ceases at the minimum wage.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
Econ =/= math.

Econ is more like math + psychology.
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I never said they did were equivocal. I recommend you open a book and get reading. And not another comic book, this info is freely available, but like I said about horses...
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
It is to their interest to employ people. Sure, it is also to their interest to speed up production, but if everyone followed lego and completely replaced everyone with machines there would be no such thing as industry. The only reason lego is able to survive is because there is industries out there that didn't follow them into the suicide chamber.
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And do you think the executives at lego give a ****? That's the problem. You assume a lack of "get mine and get out" mentality.


Automation is and will continue to push up total profits, which is why we are seeing executive compensation skyrocket. But that party is gonna crash, because it's resulting in stagnation for the very people those executives depend on for business. Do you think a single lego executive gives a **** about that, though? They've got their eye on the next years bonus, always, I assure you.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
Econ =/= math.

Econ is more like math + psychology.
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Anyhow, it's the psychology part that makes economics more interesting than math. math is rational and predictible. Humans aren't. Combine the two topics, and who the heck knows what will happen.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
Wow, the amount of misinformation you have written is staggering. The tragic reality is it hurts those you claim to help.
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Why don't you just leave? You're obviously not going to offer anything of substance up, like this obtuse response, and you're clearly not here to learn anything new, because you obviously already know everything. So why are you here?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
Seems a bit entitled and lazy on your part.
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Not really. I am a utilitarian sorta guy. I would look really confusing for me to try to debate a response that isn't coming up in the quoted post. But hey, keep doing what you're doing. I won't be the only one to point this out to you, lol.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
And do you think the executives at lego give a ****? That's the problem. You assume a lack of "get mine and get out" mentality.

Automation is and will continue to push up total profits, which is why we are seeing executive compensation skyrocket. But that party is gonna crash, because it's resulting in stagnation for the very people those executives depend on for business. Do you think a single lego executive gives a **** about that, though? They've got their eye on the next years bonus, always, I assure you.
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One company automating their entire business is somewhat logical since other industries will hold them up, but as more and more industries do it the returns to the strategy will decrease to the point that it is self defeating. Automation should after a certain threshold is reached defeat itself.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

KevinKohler said:
Not really. I am a utilitarian sorta guy. I would look really confusing for me to try to debate a response that isn't coming up in the quoted post. But hey, keep doing what you're doing. I won't be the only one to point this out to you, lol.
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I think you are more a utopian guy, facts be damned.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
Ah but I at least I get you to realize that changing the cost of labor can be harmful, which was my intent. Now that we have established that, explain why this phenomenon ceases at the minimum wage.
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So you admit that reducing the cost of labor can be harmful? I feel like we are getting somewhere, lol.:lamo
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
I never said they did were equivocal. I recommend you open a book and get reading. And not another comic book, this info is freely available, but like I said about horses...
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You know, for a guy hell bent on belittling the intelligence of others, you are making a LOT of logical fallacies and mistakes in this debate. In addition, you are offering very little, if any, substance, to your responses.



Again, why are you here?
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
Ah but I at least I get you to realize that changing the cost of labor can be harmful, which was my intent.
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It can be harmful, yes. It can also be helpful.

Kinda like taxation and government spending. A little is helpful, heaps can be harmful.

that's why I mentioned that there is a range which is most likely to include the maximizing amount.

Now that we have established that, explain why this phenomenon ceases at the minimum wage.
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If we had no taxes, and no government revenue, and no government spending, and thus no military, do you think that would be helpful in us maintaining our sovereignty?

Maybe you should look up "the fallacy of the excluded middle"
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
It is to their interest to employ people. Sure, it is also to their interest to speed up production, but if everyone followed lego and completely replaced everyone with machines there would be no such thing as industry. The only reason lego is able to survive is because there is industries out there that didn't follow them into the suicide chamber.
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Dang-it. Now I am going to have to read-up on Lego.
 
Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

Henrin said:
One company automating their entire business is somewhat logical since other industries will hold them up, but as more and more industries do it the returns to the strategy will decrease to the point that it is self defeating. Automation should after a certain threshold is reached defeat itself.
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Why wouldn't it be logical to assume that if they can do it, and it's profitable for them to do so, that others wouldn't follow?


Seems ILLOGICAL to assume anything else, really. I mean, to assume that, you have to assume that other businesses would NOT follow, would NOT increase profitability, just to keep lego afloat.


Which of these statements seems least logical to you?
 
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Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

US Conservative said:
I think you are more a utopian guy, facts be damned.
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Should perfection not be a goal for us all? Should I NOT strive to achieve and live in a utopian society? Are you saying you DON'T want the best for your fellow man, that you DON'T strive for a utopian society, whatever that means to you?
 
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