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Thread: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

  1. #191
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    Everything between the first word and the last word of that post.

    Can you explain it in a way that an idiot can understand?
    My guess is she is talking about competition pushes down wages because a company can control their labor costs better than they can their other costs while competition drives them to lower prices.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    No, consumers desire, along with a few bucks in their pocket, create the demand for that stuff. Pickles just sit there in a jar, until someone eats them. Maybe they create demand for toilet paper.
    When was the last time you bought pickles that did not have mustard seeds and dill in the jar?

    I bet you can get them at Walmart's new drive through store.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreetVixen View Post
    In other words, 88,584 thousand people make more than $10 an hour.

    You all discuss the minimum wage issue as if everyone is supposed to be making $25 dollars an hour.
    If our society was productive enough to support a min wage of $25/hr, without having any significant inflationary event, then I would be all for that.

    There is a range which min wage can realistically be in. No one knows what the exact economic maximizing min wage is, but we know what the realistic range is.

    The floor of that range would be just slightly higher than $0 (so let's call it a penny), and the maximum that the min wage could be (without guaranteeing significant inflation) would be the mean average income per work hour, which is close to $60/hr (GDP/aggregate work hours) - that's a law of mathematics. Now if we were at that maximimum possible amount, then everyone would make exactly the same thing, which wouldn't work well because I am sure that we can all agree that there are certain economic and social reasons why everyone shouldn't make the exact same wage - so I would suggest that maybe the realistic maximum possible min wage would be a quarter or maybe half of that, or around $30/hr (admittedly I just pulled that percentage out of my arse).

    So yes, $25/hr may be possible, but that's most likely a little on the high side.

    Why would you not want others to make as much money as is economically viable?
    Last edited by imagep; 12-15-14 at 09:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  4. #194
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    When was the last time you bought pickles that did not have mustard seeds and dill in the jar?

    I bet you can get them at Walmart's new drive through store.
    That's the point, it was I, a consumer, who has money in my pocket and a fondness for pickles, who created the demand to purchase the pickles, along with all their ingredients. The pickles themselves purchased nothing.

    Also, pickles don't have families to feed or rent to pay. There just pickles. Are you going to start demanding that pickles have civil rights now?
    Last edited by imagep; 12-15-14 at 09:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    If our society was productive enough to support a min wage of $25/hr, without having any significant inflationary event, then I would be all for that.

    There is a range which min wage can realistically be in. No one knows what the exact economic maximizing min wage is, but we know what the realistic range is.

    The floor of that range would be just slightly higher than $0 (so let's call it a penny), and the maximum that the min wage could be (without guaranteeing significant inflation) would be the mean average income per work hour, which is close to $60/hr (GDP/aggregate work hours) - that's a law of mathematics. Now if we were at that maximimum possible amount, then everyone would make exactly the same thing, which wouldn't work well because I am sure that we can all agree that there are certain economic and social reasons why everyone shouldn't make the exact same wage - so I would suggest that maybe the realistic maximum possible min wage would be a quarter or maybe half of that, or around $30/hr (admittedly I just pulled that percentage out of my arse).

    So yes, $25/hr may be possible, but that's most likely a little on the high side.
    Doesn't matter what the minimum wage is. You pointed out that you do not hire more people because you have no need for them. Companies have no need for the people they are not hiring and are finding new ways to get rid of employees they do have. What you are you are doing is arguing that there should be a bigger gap between the haves and the have nots. I was not kidding about Walmart having a drive thru only store. Consumers want that. Walmart is also reducing the square footage of their new supercenters. Walmart is competing with Amazon prime. People can pay them an extra hundred bucks and have their pickles and many other groceries delivered to them from Amazon at no additional costs because people are too busy being their child's agent to take time to shop for their kids and are too much in a hurry to spend quality time with their friends on facebook. McDonalds is rolling out self-ordering kiosks at 2,000 US locations; Grocery stores have self-checkouts. There is a shrinking middle to the middle class. Minimum wage has nothing to do with that.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    That's the point, it was I, a consumer, who has money in my pocket and a fondness for pickles, who created the demand to purchase the pickles, along with all their ingredients. The pickles themselves purchased nothing.

    Also, pickles don't have families to feed or rent to pay. There just pickles. Are you going to start demanding that pickles have civil rights now?
    You like pickles because corporate America tells you to like pickles.

    And yes pickles have inalienable rights.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    Everything between the first word and the last word of that post.

    Can you explain it in a way that an idiot can understand?
    1. Companies require market forces to reduce real wages, in health or sluggish economies.

    2. Firms discover that some workers are more productive that others. At first glance, firms would like to give pay raises to some employees and pay cuts to others. However, workers don't like pay cuts, and unions may make them near impossible.

    3. Most economist agree that an inflation target from anywhere of 1% - 2% is beneficial to prevent real wages from rising too much. If ALL workers' nominal wages go up 2% but prices also go up 2% or 1.7%, then their real wage stays the roughly hasn't changed too much.

    4. Since firms find it difficult to lower nominal wages, firms respond by keeping some workers' nominal wages constant and raising the nominal wages of others. If the inflation rate is positive, say 2%, unproductive workers save face by not getting a nominal pay cut - but the workers' real wages do go down (they can't buy as much of the now more expensive stuff).

    5. Without some inflation, productivity workers would receive larger pay raises at the expense of other unproductive workers who will have to face pay cuts or job losses.

    6. While it is important for wages to increase enough to surpass inflation, it shouldn't be done with the minimum wage. This creates cost push inflation, where firms increase cost due to higher cost.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    So Paris Hilton is very productive?

    In an ideal world, income would be based upon productivity. We would have a meritocracy. In the real world, income is based upon negotiating power.
    Paris Hilton isn't productive, but that doesn't mean that you income isn't based on productivity. Do certain people make a living by doing nothing productivity to make society better off? Sure. That doesn't invalidate the notion. No one person decides how high these people are paid. It is society as a whole.

    Instead of vilifying the bankers or CEO's, people should really direct their anger at the celebrities.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreetVixen View Post
    If more people worked those types of jobs, people will gain some appreciation, but lets put some things in perspective. It's not hell. It's annoying, and it's frustrating, and its very demanding, but you're not going to be paid more simply because you complain about how annoying, frustrating or demanding your job is.

    There are plenty of different professions where people complain about how they aren't paid enough for what they do. Ultimately, what defines your income is your productivity, and low wage sectors, like retail trade/leisure & hospitality generally contribute less to the economy than all the other sectors, in percentage terms anyway.
    It's pretty hellacious. I worked doing repo work - that was pretty terrible. Not quite hell, but close. Retail is possibly the definition of hell. But if it's not, I've also done blown insulation and I've worked as a mover. Both of those were depressing.

    You are so tired and sore after 9-14 hours of hard manual labor that you really have no life outside of work. Wake up, to work. Come home, eat, go to bed. Wake up do it again. Weekend? Well, you might actually have to work on the weekend if it's busy and you need the money (which you will).

    Sorry wife and kids.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreetVixen View Post
    I use to think so too when I was just a mere cashier.

    Then I learned when I got a real job...
    I said 50%. There are people who do actual work. A lot on Wall Street do actual hard work with long hours, but of course, it's for no reason because Wall Street is a giant facade that does nothing to help this country anymore.

    But Doctors, scientists, construction, etc... these types of jobs earn their checks.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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