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Thread: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You're operating under the impression that their current pay matches the exact productivity of their labor. Faulty assumption.
    Ummm...I don't think you understand what 'productivity' means.

    'PRODUCTIVITY'
    An economic measure of output per unit of input. Inputs include labor and capital, while output is typically measured in revenues and other GDP components such as business inventories. Productivity measures may be examined collectively (across the whole economy) or viewed industry by industry to examine trends in labor growth, wage levels and technological improvement.'

    Productivity Definition | Investopedia

    Whatever they are producing at their cost IS their productivity.

    If they are paid 1 cent or $1 million dollars per hour doesn't matter. In both examples, they are producing the good/service with a level of productivity...the former obviously has far more productivity then the latter.

    Whatever someone is paid to produce something IS their level of productivity.

    So, if you are paid $7/hr. to make a widget/hr. then you are more productive then if you are paid $8/hr. to make a widget/hr..

    So, by paying someone more money to do the exact same task, all other things being equal, then you are making them less productive.
    Last edited by DA60; 12-15-14 at 06:41 PM.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    ...Making large numbers of products or services more expensive without improving them in any way cannot help society as a whole. Again, not possible. It just means society as a whole must spend a larger percentage of their incomes to buy products/services that are no more efficient.

    If you or others choose to ignore this, go ahead. It does not make it any less impossible.
    When people have more money in their pockets, they spend and save more, and demand increases. When companies have an increase in realized demand, they produce more, and thus they hire more people, and create more wealth. The cost for higher wages is paid for out of the additional wealth creation, it costs the consumer nothing, and it costs the business owner nothing.

    You are starting out with the assumption that an increase in wages would automatically result in higher prices, but nothing in economics is "automatic". There has to be some sort of inflationary mechanism, which is not fully offset by opposing deflationary mechanisms, for there to be an increase in prices.
    Last edited by imagep; 12-15-14 at 06:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Ummm...I don't think you understand what 'productivity' means.

    'PRODUCTIVITY'
    An economic measure of output per unit of input. Inputs include labor and capital, while output is typically measured in revenues and other GDP components such as business inventories. Productivity measures may be examined collectively (across the whole economy) or viewed industry by industry to examine trends in labor growth, wage levels and technological improvement.'

    Productivity Definition | Investopedia

    Whatever they are producing at their cost IS their productivity.

    If they are paid 1 cent or $1 million dollars per hour doesn't matter. In both examples, they are producing the good/service with a level of productivity...the former obviously has far more productivity then the latter.

    Whatever someone is paid to produce something IS their level of productivity.

    So, if you are paid $7/hr. to make a widget/hr. then you are more productive then if you are paid $8/hr. to make a widget/hr..

    So, by paying someone more money to do the exact same task, all other things being equal, then you are making them less productive.
    I understand that you are defining productivity as units produced per labor dollar, but that's not how most people use it.

    I think that most of us would define "productivity" in terms of units of production per work hour. So if our productivity increases, that would mean that we are producing more per hour, regardless of how much labor cost was involved for that hour.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And here I thought a market crash cost all those jobs...
    You clearly did not read it.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    When people have more money in their pockets, they spend and save more, and demand increases. When companies have an increase in realized demand, they produce more, and thus they hire more people, and create more wealth. The cost for higher wages is paid for out of the additional wealth creation, it costs the consumer nothing, and it costs the business owner nothing.
    The way I see it is that a higher minimum wage would actually allow us to lower taxes to a reasonable level, since welfare programs would not be as prominent or necessary. You'd think the fiscal conservatives would be all over that.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    When people have more money in their pockets, they spend and save more, and demand increases. When companies have an increase in realized demand, they produce more, and thus they hire more people, and create more wealth. The cost for higher wages is paid for out of the additional wealth creation, it costs the consumer nothing, and it costs the business owner nothing.
    But if the things they are buying cost as much or more then the added money in their pockets, they save nothing. I have explained this several times in other threads.

    If you are seriously going to argue that inefficiency is the way to economic prosperity, then, with respect, I strongly think you should rethink your position.

    Anyway, if you have a problem with what I am saying, I suggest you take it up with those that wrote the CBO report...they can probably explain it better (or at least, use much bigger words) then I can.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    The way I see it is that a higher minimum wage would actually allow us to lower taxes to a reasonable level, since welfare programs would not be as prominent or necessary. You'd think the fiscal conservatives would be all over that.
    I agree. When I've asked some of my middle class tea party buddies about that, their reasoning was that they believed a higher minimum wage would somehow harm their own earnings ability, either through the lower paid worker getting a disproportionately large slice of the wage pool pie, or due to inflation. Their concern for their personal well being exceeds their concern for fiscal conservatism.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    I understand that you are defining productivity as units produced per labor dollar, but that's not how most people use it.

    I think that most of us would define "productivity" in terms of units of production per work hour. So if our productivity increases, that would mean that we are producing more per hour, regardless of how much labor cost was involved for that hour.
    I am defining productivity by it's definition. Many people can start calling a banana a Camaro...but the official definition of the yellow fruit in question is still a banana.

    I simply do not believe that if the government forces a company to pay minimum wage worker 'X' 50 cents more per hour that worker 'X' will work any harder.

    Why should he? The company is not rewarding him for anything, they do not want to give him the extra money and are only doing so because they have no choice. He might feel more loyalty to the government and vote for them next election, but not the company...which is EXACTLY, btw, why most governments do it. Votes.
    Last edited by DA60; 12-15-14 at 06:57 PM.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I simply do not believe that if the government forces a company to pay minimum wage worker 'X' 50 cents more per hour that worker 'X' will work any harder.
    The argument isn't that the worker will work harder. It's that the worker will spend more money and expand our economy by producing more demand, and that this economic expansion will result in more employment and more goods and services being produced.

    If McDonalds get's a boost in sales due to every other low wage paying company having to pay more, then McDonalds will be able pay it's own worker pay increase because of the additional profit from the boost in sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    I agree. When I've asked some of my middle class tea party buddies about that, their reasoning was that they believed a higher minimum wage would somehow harm their own earnings ability, either through the lower paid worker getting a disproportionately large slice of the wage pool pie, or due to inflation. Their concern for their personal well being exceeds their concern for fiscal conservatism.
    The sad thing is: a higher minimum wage would really benefit everyone. It's a common misconception that your personal gain alone produces your living standards. That's just not true. The economy is inherently cooperative and, like it or not, we rely on others for our personal well-being. Now, from that assertion, we have a choice: do we want the other members of the economy around us to be happy and prosperous, or do we want them to work in wage slave jobs where they make just barely enough to keep alive?
    Last edited by TeleKat; 12-15-14 at 07:09 PM.

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