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Thread: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recession

  1. #101
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    I can't think of a single reason that we should have that policy. I'd much prefer to eliminate all forms of means tested welfare, and then use that money to either provide more government services for everyone, or to simply reduce taxation.
    I don't quite agree, or at least not entirely. We'll always have people who cannot work and make a livable wage, and they might be diagnosed as disabled or not. And whether anyone WANTS to subsidize those people, it's going to happen because we won't allow beggars with little infants to stand around every gathering place like you see regularly overseas, or little kids begging for food on the side of the road, etc.

    I get accused of being a liberal frequently, but I'm really much more of a libertarian - if something has to be taxpayer subsidized (like McDonalds), then we probably don't really need it. I think that a higher minimum wage would produce a much better economy, than any sort of means tested individual welfare or subsidies to low paying employers.
    I do agree with that for the most part, but I'm actually not very opposed if at all to things like EITC, and we (taxpayers) are going to have to subsidize healthcare for low wage workers somehow, IMO, not because I want that but realistically and practically that's the best option.

  2. #102
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I don't quite agree, or at least not entirely. We'll always have people who cannot work and make a livable wage, and they might be diagnosed as disabled or not. And whether anyone WANTS to subsidize those people, it's going to happen because we won't allow beggars with little infants to stand around every gathering place like you see regularly overseas, or little kids begging for food on the side of the road, etc.
    I agree. I don't have any issue with helping those who are disabled. But we can do that without means testing.


    I do agree with that for the most part, but I'm actually not very opposed if at all to things like EITC, and we (taxpayers) are going to have to subsidize healthcare for low wage workers somehow, IMO, not because I want that but realistically and practically that's the best option.
    Seems like policies that lead to higher wages and more productivity would be preferable to EITC. Also, seems like lower taxes on the non-rich would have the same effect as EITC. If we are going to subsidize healthcare in any way, and I can see that there may be a need for that, it should be in such a manner that everyone receives that same government benefit. this kinda brings us to something like the "citizens dividend" (aka "guaranteed income"), which would replace all forms of means tested welfare, but wouldn't penalize those who work and make decent incomes, and wouldn't have the effect of locking people into poverty.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  3. #103
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Except no one is advocating that. You really should be able to tell the difference between voluntary employment and slavery at this point.
    Those the advocate the abolition of the minimum wage do not understand the concept of de facto slavery.... You lose minimum wage and there really isn't much difference between voluntary employment and slavery other than you have choice over who does the whipping.

  4. #104
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    It would not be pretty, but it very well might create jobs. What we would see is wage rate determination by the cross of Labor Supply and Demand.
    Econ 101 does not adequately explain the real world.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  5. #105
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    When I worked for MW (it was $1.60/hour and soon went to $2.00/hour) I shared an apartment becuase, as you said, it was not enough income to meet expenses living alone. MW was then, and still is now, not offered except to entry level workers (under 3% of the workforce) and anyone could exceed that pay by proving themselves to be worth more. The idea that one full-time worker at MW can fully support themselves, much less support a familiy, has never been the case; an entry level McJob was never intended to be a career.
    Intended by whom? And why shouldn't full time employment support a family? What law of the universe dictates this?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  6. #106
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Intended by whom? And why shouldn't full time employment support a family? What law of the universe dictates this?
    Assuming that a family is 4 persons, and only one of them works 40 hours per week, in order to not be poor enough to get Medicaid then that single worker must receive at least $32,713/year (138% of the FPL) or about $16/hour (at todays prices). Obviously, if the MW were raised from $7.25/hour to $16/hour many prices would also increase requiring the federal poverty level (thus the MW) to rise again.

    One must also consider that those now making MW + $X/hour would expect to remain at that level, since the relative value of their labor still remains above that of the 3% that now get the federal MW. Is it really practical to give most US hourly workers (and many salaried workers) a raise of $8.75/hour each?

    The resulting cost of living increase (from giving the bulk of the US workforce a sizable raise) would require COLA adjustments in SS (more taxes?) and reduce the value of many private pensions that do not get COLA adjustments. If it were as simple as mandating that all US workers wiill be middle class by raising their hourly pay rate then that would have been done long ago.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #107
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Assuming that a family is 4 persons, and only one of them works 40 hours per week, in order to not be poor enough to get Medicaid then that single worker must receive at least $32,713/year (138% of the FPL) or about $16/hour (at todays prices). Obviously, if the MW were raised from $7.25/hour to $16/hour many prices would also increase requiring the federal poverty level (thus the MW) to rise again.

    One must also consider that those now making MW + $X/hour would expect to remain at that level, since the relative value of their labor still remains above that of the 3% that now get the federal MW. Is it really practical to give most US hourly workers (and many salaried workers) a raise of $8.75/hour each?
    Why not? Prices go up, yes, but not as much as the pay.

    Libertarians and conservatives in this sort of discussion often throw out terms like "value of labor," but ask yourself this:

    Why is a McDonald's worker's labor worth $7.25 and not $15?

    The resulting cost of living increase (from giving the bulk of the US workforce a sizable raise) would require COLA adjustments in SS (more taxes?) and reduce the value of many private pensions that do not get COLA adjustments. If it were as simple as mandating that all US workers wiill be middle class by raising their hourly pay rate then that would have been done long ago.
    "Family can be fed and housed" is now "middle class?" When did our standards get this low? I feel I should also point out that minimum wage can't support a family of one, let alone four.
    Last edited by Deuce; 12-15-14 at 11:50 AM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  8. #108
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Intended by whom? And why shouldn't full time employment support a family? What law of the universe dictates this?
    Some people prefer that those who they feel are below them should stay below them. I think that part of their mindset is that if entry level workers make a decent living, then it will cause the standard of living of higher skill level workers to fall.

    What I find odd about that is that the same people are the first to point out that economics isn't a zero sum game when someone else suggests that the excessive income and wealth acquired by the uber rich results in others having less. apparently zero sum only works in one direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  9. #109
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    ... If it were as simple as mandating that all US workers wiill be middle class by raising their hourly pay rate then that would have been done long ago.
    It was done long ago, in other countries, and it seems to work out for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  10. #110
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    Re: Study: The 2007 minimum wage hike cost more than 1 million jobs during the recess

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    ...

    Why is a McDonald's worker's labor worth $7.25 and not $15? ...
    Some claim that it's not even worth $7.25. Of course if that was true, then no minimum wage workers would have a job because no employer is going to pay anyone more than they are worth.

    The fact is that no worker get's paid what they are worth, with the possible exception of the CEO and his/her buddies. If workers got paid what they are worth, then the company couldn't make a profit.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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