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Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

Hilarious - I'll quote myself: "How can a group like ISIS have oil fields? They might control them temporarily, but they're not yet a country."

It is clear that you believe you have struck upon some level of brilliance incomprehensible to me. Do you believe that only countries can sell oil? Have you never heard of the very large amount of pipeline theft that occurs? What do you believe happens to that oil?

Hilarious indeed.
 
:lamo what ever....Child.

Add calling someone a kid into the Internet Tough Guy repertoire. Are you going for the clean sweep? So far we have:

1) Calling a group of people ******s (though refusing to say it directly to one of them)
2) Threatening to meet the person in public
3) Calling the person a kid

Do we have any Internet Tough Guy experts on this board? What's the next step? This is as far as I've ever gotten with one.
 
No, but I can quote them, which I did. If can find any medical doctors defending rectal feedings as a legitimate medical procedure, please cite them.

Did you quote? Did you block indent or use quotation marks?

I am not claiming that taking a meal an unlawful combatant refuses to eat, turning it into a slushee and pumping it up their ass is a medical procedure. Nor did I play a doctor on the Internet. It seems clear to me the message to the asshole who refused the meal was very simple. We control you. Fight us and we will make it very uncomfortable for you.
 
I don't understand what is difficult here. If you're on board with the U.S. as a country that embraces torture as a legitimate interrogation tool, have the courage to admit that is your position.
Interrogations are not torture.

I have been very consistent, as have you. You have been gleefully anti-American from your first post in this thread. I believe that winning trumps politeness. We make them uncomfortable and we keep them uncomfortable to get the information we believe they have.
 
Interrogations are not torture.

I have been very consistent, as have you. You have been gleefully anti-American from your first post in this thread. I believe that winning trumps politeness. We make them uncomfortable and we keep them uncomfortable to get the information we believe they have.

Correct, interrogations are not torture. But "enhanced interrogation" techniques are, by definition and international law, torture.
 

As I said earlier, here is the definition of torture:

Torture - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
: the act of causing severe physical pain as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something

: something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience

So, I think we can agree that it is torture by the definition of the word, right? And International Law:

APT - A legal definition of torture
"Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

The above is from "Article 1 of the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment is the internationally agreed legal definition of torture" (of which we are a member).
 
"You are not curious.

Where were the individuals captured? Were they waging war against the "host" country? Were they in uniform and was the war declared? If so they are Prisoners of War and must be treated humanely. Anything else is an act of war. Under an actual leader we might go to war to resolve such a travesty.

You show yourself as one unschooled."
If they were like most of our prisoners in GITMO, they were captured on a city street, not engaged in any acts of 'hostility' at that moment, but turned in by a bounty hunter. The point is you're assuming that if they were arrested, they are guilty.

If this is your scenario then what you posted before was trolling.

Every terrorist has an anti-American lawyer, someone like Eric Holder. The democratic staffers who wrote the hit piece interviewed the lawyers but not the CIA leadership, planners or interrogators.

You said most of the detainees in Guantanamo Bay were not engaged in hostilities against the US. Are you claiming that less than one-half of the detainees are unlawful combatants or high value leadership of terrorist organizations?

And to say a leader would go to war to resolve such a travesty just means we'd demand human rights for our own people to the point of declaring war to enforce them. If a country doesn't have the ability to wage war on the U.S., too f'ing bad for their people I guess. It's a nice version of rights you got there - essentially, if you're a powerful country, your people get them. If you're not, then your people don't have any and the U.S. has no responsibility to recognize any human rights for non-Americans. So they're not rights, but whatever can be enforced at the end of a gun.
Your nation may choose to defend your rights. If you are waging legal war then you have rights agreed to by treaty. If your citizens are snatched off the streets and they are not waging unlawful war nor are they committing illegal acts then yes, the citizen's nation may go to war to recover its citizens.
 
As I said earlier, here is the definition of torture:

Torture - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


So, I think we can agree that it is torture by the definition of the word, right? And International Law:

APT - A legal definition of torture


The above is from "Article 1 of the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment is the internationally agreed legal definition of torture" (of which we are a member).

Since a majority of the countries that adopted and ratified the UN Convention have routinely practiced torture by their own definition and continue to do so I think we can set that aside as the laughable hypocrisy that it is. As for the dictionary definition, it fits nothing done by the US.
 
Since a majority of the countries that adopted and ratified the UN Convention have routinely practiced torture by their own definition and continue to do so I think we can set that aside as the laughable hypocrisy that it is. As for the dictionary definition, it fits nothing done by the US.

Agreed on the hypocrisy. As far as the dictionary definition:

:the act of causing severe physical pain as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something

: something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience

We beat prisoners, waterboarded them, forced them to stay awake, injected pureed food into their ass, and had them standing with their arms chained above their heads (while being forced to stay awake) for 180 hours. That would clearly cause severe physical and mental pain (and it was for the purpose of forcing them to do or say something).

It's literally the definition.
 
That's not the point - if your son gets captured, you would be SATISFIED he was treated fairly if he got the "he has no rights" treatment and "enhanced interrogation" you support for people not like you.

The point is we should treat our detainees with the same respect for rights that we'd expect/demand of others for our people. If your son/brother was waterboarded 5/183 times in custody, you know and I know and we all know you'd consider his treatment torture. And if some Congressman, a democrat, in testimony, said, "He wasn't tortured, he was just made to feel uncomfortable, I'm not sure the U.S. can intervene. His rights are being respected." if you were half a man, you'd likely have to be restrained to keep from punching him.

Was the individual an unlawful combatant?
 
"We are making people uncomfortable. They tell us stuff. We combine that stuff with other stuff. Smart people toss it in a salad bowl. What idiot told you it would STOP terrorism?"

And...

"We made people uncomfortable. We did it so they would tell us what they knew about future attacks. You do remember what happened on September 11? Did you go to the streets and pass out candy to the children?"
In the first quote you responded to me after I said that the interrogations hasn't stopped terrorism and you asked what idiot told me it did so I could gather from your next statement you are the idiot saying they do stop future attacks aka terrorism when we interrogate them and they tell us what they know about future attacks, which could stop terrorism from occurring. Because I never said it helped to stop terrorism completely, right?
Do you believe that stopping one attack stops terrorism? I do not.

You used the phrase that you were told it would stop terrorism. I said it would give us knowledge of future attacks. Do you see the difference?

Also I understand shoving some food up your ass isn't uncomfortable for you but for others it is a little more than uncomfortable.
I believe it is uncomfortable. I do not believe it is torture.
 
I believe this is relevant to the discussion....

"There is, first of all, the matter of morality. Critics of enhanced interrogation techniques have taken to saying that Americans don’t torture, period – meaning in this instance that we do not engage in coercive interrogation techniques ranging from sleep deprivation to prolonged loud noise and/or bright lights to waterboarding. Anyone who holds the opposite view is a moral cretin and guilty of “arrant inhumanity.” Or so the argument goes.

But this posture begins to come apart under examination. For one thing, the issue of “torture” itself needs to be put in a moral context and on a moral continuum. Waterboarding is a very nasty technique for sure – but it is considerably different (particularly in the manner administered by the CIA) than, say, mutilation with electric drills, rape, splitting knees, or forcing a terrorist to watch his children suffer and die in order to try to elicit information from him. Waterboarding is a technique that has been routinely used in the training of some U.S. military personnel – and which the journalist Christopher Hitchens endured. I certainly wouldn’t want to undergo waterboarding – but while a very harsh technique, it is one that was applied in part because it would do far less damage to a person than other techniques. It is also surely relevant that waterboarding was not used randomly and promiscuously, but rather on three known terrorists. And of the thousands of unlawful combatants captured by the U.S., fewer than 100 were detained and questioned in the CIA program, according to Michael Hayden, President Bush’s last CIA director, and former Attorney General Michael Mukasey – and of those, fewer than one-third were subjected to any of the techniques discussed in the memos on enhanced interrogation."

Article « Morality And Enhanced Interrogation Techniques « Commentary Magazine

Good read.
 
Absolutely. Then, they claim that the reason they released it is so the nation can admit their wrongs, and take accountability for what they've done. If you ask me, the nation's not who should be admitting their wrongs. It's the CIA. Ironically enough, they're still minimizing what has happened.

The CIA, not an arm of the democratic party like the IRS, disagreed, in writing with the findings. They gave reasons for each.

The Democratic party, the party of traitors and liars, Feinsteins and Grubers, did this to harm the nation. They succeeded.
 
I believe this is relevant to the discussion....

"There is, first of all, the matter of morality. Critics of enhanced interrogation techniques have taken to saying that Americans don’t torture, period – meaning in this instance that we do not engage in coercive interrogation techniques ranging from sleep deprivation to prolonged loud noise and/or bright lights to waterboarding. Anyone who holds the opposite view is a moral cretin and guilty of “arrant inhumanity.” Or so the argument goes.

But this posture begins to come apart under examination. For one thing, the issue of “torture” itself needs to be put in a moral context and on a moral continuum. Waterboarding is a very nasty technique for sure – but it is considerably different (particularly in the manner administered by the CIA) than, say, mutilation with electric drills, rape, splitting knees, or forcing a terrorist to watch his children suffer and die in order to try to elicit information from him. Waterboarding is a technique that has been routinely used in the training of some U.S. military personnel – and which the journalist Christopher Hitchens endured. I certainly wouldn’t want to undergo waterboarding – but while a very harsh technique, it is one that was applied in part because it would do far less damage to a person than other techniques. It is also surely relevant that waterboarding was not used randomly and promiscuously, but rather on three known terrorists. And of the thousands of unlawful combatants captured by the U.S., fewer than 100 were detained and questioned in the CIA program, according to Michael Hayden, President Bush’s last CIA director, and former Attorney General Michael Mukasey – and of those, fewer than one-third were subjected to any of the techniques discussed in the memos on enhanced interrogation."

Article « Morality And Enhanced Interrogation Techniques « Commentary Magazine

Good read.

Can anyone take you seriously when you're main thesis is that you think the people you are arguing against are "******s"? You've really killed any credibility you had (I don't know if you had any before).
 
Can anyone take you seriously when you're main thesis is that you think the people you are arguing against are "******s"? You've really killed any credibility you had (I don't know if you had any before).

You can bait and troll, and stalk all you want...Not taking the bait...I'm moving on, you should too.
 
"We made people uncomfortable. We did it so they would tell us what they knew about future attacks."
"Uncomfortable." You do realize that sounds ridiculous. When it was done to us, it was torture. Now we've redefined the horrific physical and psychological effects of torture to making people "uncomfortable." Question, though - if it just makes people uncomfortable, why would we need medical personnel on hand when we do it? No one has ever died from being uncomfortable.
Let me take a slightly different approach.
We made people uncomfortable so they would cooperate with us to tell us the things they knew. We ddid it to identify and interrupt potential future attacks. We also did it to identify and fill the gaps in our understanding about how Al Qaeda and the Taliban worked. We used hard approaches to break hard people. It worked. We know a great deal about how Al Qaeda was organized, how it communicated, in short how it planned, organized, trained, financed and carried out attacks.

We made people uncomfortable for good reasons. We ramped up to war after a successful attack that killed about 3,000 Americans and devastated an American city. We also believed there would be additional attacks.

From the two reports, Feinsteins treasonous report and the CIA rebuttal, it is clear that there were problems during the ramp up. The databases and procedures for handling the detainees were not in place. We had not created effective techniques to identify and repeatedly hammer cultural weaknesses the detainees were likely to have. In some cases people who should not have been involved in the interrogations were because they were the only people who were available. These problems were sorted out over time.

I have not created a timeline yet but suspect the "highlighted" abuses occurred during this period.

An additional thought is that the difference between interrogation and torture can be a fine line. If we are tormenting someone to break his will so he will cooperate and then he does we have no further need, while he is cooperating, to harshly interrogate him. If we are tormenting someone simply for the sake of tormenting him without regard for the information he might provide then that crosses into torture. For me the line is clear. For many of you that line may be invisible
 
You asked how many detainees weren't high value targets. The answer is the vast majority.

And what your response above glosses over is most were released after months or years of "enhanced" interrogation, solitary confinement, etc.

Other than pointing me to a wiki page that spoke of those released you have not given me evidence that the majority of those held in Guantanamo are not high value leadership or unlawful combatants.
 
You can bait and troll, and stalk all you want...Not taking the bait...I'm moving on, you should too.

Why should anyone even take the time to respond to you if you've already deemed them a ***** before you've even read their argument?

I have nothing to move on from, I'm just pointing out that you're not a person worth taking seriously. And I will continue pointing it out until you recant your asinine assertion.
 
I've sided with, among others, the person who designed the SERE training program for the Navy, interrogators who spent a career actually trying to get information from captives through traditional means, many members of the top military chain of command, etc. If they are all traitors, then the term just means that they "disagree with right wing apologists for torture."
I would expect that one or two misguided individual might side with you. It is no surprise that a few people would hold opposing views. But I want to see their statements in context. Links please.
 
Why should anyone even take the time to respond to you if you've already deemed them a ***** before you've even read their argument?

I have nothing to move on from, I'm just pointing out that you're not a person worth taking seriously. And I will continue pointing it out until you recant your asinine assertion.

Ok, not all liberals are ******s, just immature ones that bait and stalk....Like you are doing now.
 
I'm just curious where and how you draw that line around torture. What makes waterboarding torture, when done TO us, but not-torture when done by us? Is it length of time or what? As far as I can tell, it boils down to U.S.A.! U.S.A.!U.S.A.! We don't do bad things!!
I believe I answered this a post or two back. Rather than repeat what I wrote scroll back a few messages.

Ultimately it comes down to purpose.
 
Bizarre - who said it was OK? You quoted me saying it was NOT OK, so you must have been responding to a person not me or in your imagination.

And, again, justifying evil by pointing out that it's not as evil as some other act isn't actually a legitimate exercise.
Are you unfamiliar with Obama's aggressive drone program he uses to assassinate people he chooses? Those strikes routinely kill nearby people. I do not see much argument against killing people the way i do about making them uncomfortable.
 
If the report damages the U.S. or CIA, it's the acts that the report documents and not revealing them that did the damage. If we don't want the release of what we do to damage the country, we should not do those acts. Only idiots believed we could have an extensive "Enhanced Interrogation" program, renditions, etc. and keep that secret because unfortunately for the government we have a free press and free speech in this country.

No. It is the report. And the damage has been done. The US will become isolated even more than under Obama. We will see Americans killed by lone wolf attacks within this country. We will see successful recruiting for the Jihadists. And the CIA will be demoralized and neutered. These are all bad things that flow directly from Feinstein's treasonous release of this report.
 
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