• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

JasperL said:
Oh, OK, we do it differently!! You should have mentioned it earlier, but if you don't mind can you explain the differences? I've read accounts and the basic process sounds identical - board, incline, restraints, towel, water, choking, can't breath, panic, etc. repeat as needed. Admittedly sometimes they'd strap the person to a ladder, and immerse their head in water, till they started choking, but the end result is or can be the same. Water into the lungs and stomach, can't breath, etc.

And Truthful Cooperation Incentives is WAY too literal.

If you don't know better, you can read "Enhanced Interrogation" and believe it's just new AND improved - interrogation enhanced! A better way to ask questions! Green walls versus white! Wood versus foam bottom! Nothing hints that it's interrogation, but with intense physical, or mental pain and anguish, and often a healthy dose of panic thrown in, intended to totally break hardened criminals and killers (i.e. torture!).
Click to expand...

It is an effective way to address an enemy who seeks martyrdom.
 
d0gbreath said:
Good post. Speaking of 13 years, I'd like to shake the hands of our special forces soldiers that were submitted to these tactics for 13 years.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure that our guys try not to get captured.
 
JasperL said:
So you have no actual moral issue with what ISIS does, their techniques. Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
Click to expand...

I have a deep moral objection to their end purpose. Their tactics are a rational expression of their strengths and weaknesses. A moral evaluation of tactics is a useless exercise.
 
MMC said:
So is Qatar, Kuwait, The UAE, and Bahrain. They also cut the Brits, French, Germans, Italians, Aussies, South American countries, then Chinese, and Russians in on oil deals thru backdoors.

Looks like, business is really good for the Saud.
Click to expand...

Not with the price per barrel where it is.
 
JasperL said:
The point is rectal FEEDING is torture/EIT or degradation or humiliation or punishment - take your pick. It's not a medical procedure or done for medical purposes. No solid food is digested in the large intestine.

You left off the relevant portion of that quote: Where Rectal Feeding Came From and How the CIA Used It - Bloomberg

If it was hydration, it was still almost surely done for degradation/humiliation, but still potentially (barely) plausible that the reason was medical purposes. Not so with solid food. It's simply NOT remotely plausible that's the procedure we would use if the person actually needed (for medical reasons) to be force fed.
Click to expand...

Either way I like the concept. Did it break the enemy down so he told us things we wanted to know or confirmed he did not know anything more?
 
Luftwaffe said:
Is he a citizen of the USA?

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that says POWs need to be treated with any sort of rights/humanity/what-have-you is the geneva convention and the USA clearly can give two craps about the Geneva convention.

IOW, does the USA even have to convict enemies of war? Can it not simply just do whatever to the enemy of the state? Unlike them, we have rights, but they don't, they're not part of the USA in any way.
Click to expand...

They are unlawful combatants. They are not protected by the Geneva Conventions. They are not prisoners of war in the classic sense as they did not wear uniforms, have badges of rank nor a country. They should be wrung dry of any useful information and then tried, convicted and executed.
 
Threegoofs said:
It reminds me of how people had questions about Nazi Germany, and how normal people could have been coo opted into tolerating horrible things.

One can really build a psychological wall when threatened that makes no logical sense to the outside world. And that's what I see happening with this whole torture thing.
Click to expand...

How many people died in the murder camps in Germany? Millions.
Who were the victims? German citizens or the non-military citizens of conquered countries.

How many people died while being made uncomfortable? Or or two.
Who were the victims? Unlawful combatants.

How is your sense of proportion doing?
 
Threegoofs said:
So if they did use food, would you consider that torture?

Because:

"One CIA cable released in the report reveals that detainee Majid Khan was administered by enema his “‘lunch tray’ consisting of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts and raisins was ‘pureed and rectally infused’”. One CIA officer’s email was in the report quoted as saying “we used the largest Ewal [sic] tube we had”."
Click to expand...

Did the unlawful combatant enjoy his lunch?
Did he break his hunger strike or cooperate with his interrogators?
 
Luftwaffe said:
No I'm not, we would have to rescue them, just like if we detained someone from Iran without trial they would have to rescue them.

That's the extremely unfortunate reality, no matter what an international law says, the POW is ultimately at the mercy of the captor.
Click to expand...

An American citizen who is doing nothing wrong is not a prisoner of war. A POW is a uniformed member of a nation's armed forces engaged in combat against another nation who has been captured and is being held so they can wage war no longer.

An unlawful detention is an international incident. It may be a provocation. It may be a cause for war. But the civilian is NOT a POW.
 
Threegoofs said:
So somehow being a low level guy assigned to a security detail means he's responsible for 9/11? Well, since I guess we cant actually prosecute the Saudi's who helped create all those guys (they sell us cheap oil! Great guys!) we need to find some scapegoat.
Click to expand...
Are you an Islamofascist supporter all of the time, or just today, and yesterday, and the day before...

Someone on a high up muckety-muck's security detail will know a great deal that is useful. Who comes and goes, who is trusted and who is not. Who influences and who does not. A member of a security detail will find out the prime's habits, tastes, proclivities, and vices.

And you should have that erection looked at by a doctor. The Saudi's are not our friends. Nor are they the primary culprits in this thread.
 
JasperL said:
You're assuming that those we stripped of rights, jailed, subjected to torture or "EIT" were in fact "utterly brutal to Americans" and that was often just not the case. The point of rights is in fact to give the person the meaningful opportunity to show that he or she in fact wasn't 'utterly brutal.." It's what separates us from Stalin.
Click to expand...

Given your extensive knowledge of the subject, how many detainees were not unlawful combatants, or high value targets?

An unlawful combatant has the right to a firing squad.
 
JasperL said:
You're assuming that those we stripped of rights, jailed, subjected to torture or "EIT" were in fact "utterly brutal to Americans" and that was often just not the case. The point of rights is in fact to give the person the meaningful opportunity to show that he or she in fact wasn't 'utterly brutal.." It's what separates us from Stalin.
Click to expand...

We did not strip anyone of rights. They had none to start with.
 
Mithros said:
Your post was akin to claiming that emotional pain isn't real pain. It's a cruel heartless position that has no basis in reality. Numerous scientific studies have concluded that emotional pain and emotional anguish are just as real as the pain of losing a limb. In fact when it comes to torture, mental torture is probably more painful and damaging than physical pain. Watch the myth busters episode on Chinese water torture. Despite being able to stop it at any time, the person exposed was going through a mental breakdown after a few hours.

Also your post ignores the fact that torture can depend on the individual. Serving a prisoner bacon would usually be a treat, but what about a devout Jew? Would that not be torture to force someone to eat something that they believed to be a sin against their god? Devout Muslims (and many others) view watching pornography as evil. And again, we're not even talking about normal stuff. I doubt many people could be forced to watch something like 2 girls 1 cup and not consider it to be torture.

As for it's brevity, that's not a valid defense. It would be like reading the Diary of Anne Frank and saying only, "Being locked in a room isn't that bad". Claiming that this statement was brief would not excuse the entire lack of human empathy it took to say it. It's not just brief, it's intentionally ignoring tremendous human suffering.

Finally, something can be torture and not be the worst possible thing ever. Otherwise it would be clear that your definition of torture pales in comparison to the real thing. Burning? Cutting off someone’s ears? Decapitation? Those are positively luxurious compared to some thinks we've thought up over the years. Judas' cradle, flaying, the breaking wheel, the pear of anguish, the head crusher, the iron maiden, the Spanish tickler, and many many other torture devices are on an entirely different level of cruelty.
Click to expand...
We made people very uncomfortable. One died. Maybe two died. That is not clear yet.
War is unpleasant. You need to stop pissing your pants and thank the people who get the information that becomes intelligence.

You need to grow up.
 
Manc Skipper said:
So what? They were fighting for a country that incarcerates six innocent people in Gitmo for five years, then releases them in South America, never having filed charges. They gave up their lives for a country that allows a captive to freeze to death chained to a concrete floor in the Salt Pit in Afghanistan, then note in passing that his rendition was a case of mistaken identity.
Click to expand...

Who do so many of you believe there are charges to be filed? Do you believe that waging war as an unlawful combatant is a crime to be found in a country's criminal code? About the only right an unlawful combatant has is execution by firing squad once the facts are clear.

It is time to start with military tribunals and executions. We need to prepare for the new batches of unlawful combatants.
 
Manc Skipper said:
So what? They were fighting for a country that incarcerates six innocent people in Gitmo for five years, then releases them in South America, never having filed charges. They gave up their lives for a country that allows a captive to freeze to death chained to a concrete floor in the Salt Pit in Afghanistan, then note in passing that his rendition was a case of mistaken identity.
Click to expand...

They were not innocent and we were never under an obligation to file charges. This is war, not law enforcement.
 
Kobie said:
People who are defending this kind of conduct are sick.
Click to expand...

We agree. We need to arrest Dianne Feinstein and bring her up on charges of treason immediately. She needs her day in court to defend her enormous crime against her fellow citizens, or at least the half of us who are not wannabe traitors like her.

Then, once she is convicted we need to strip her of her wealth. Treason is a capital offense. She deserves the maximum penalty given the deliberate way she hurt the people of this nation.
 
Kobie said:
The conservative reaction to this report is wholly unsurprising. Those who disagree with barbarism done in our name, under the guise of Keeping Us Safe, barbarism which was lied about for years by its perpetrators, are apparently terrorist sympathizers.
Click to expand...

In a similar vein the wannabe traitorous bedwetters' reactions have been equally unsurprising. We certainly cannot make anyone uncomfortable any more can we?

Anti-Americans. You are now about half of the population. This nation cannot survive with so many America-haters living among us.
 
Jack Hays said:
We did not strip anyone of rights. They had none to start with.
Click to expand...

Just the point. One of the standard pieces of baloney peddled in anti-American propaganda is that Muslim jihadists captured abroad have rights under the Constitution of the U.S. just like any ordinary American citizens. In fact unlawful combatants captured on or near a battlefield have almost no rights. And the jihadists are unlawful combatants of the worst kind. Almost everything they do--e.g. sabotage, fighting out of uniform, purposely targeting civilians, using them as human shields, murdering them to terrorize others into submission, using children, retarded people, and people whose families would otherwise be killed as human bombs, torturing and murdering legitimate prisoners of war and completely innocent civilians, fighting of out hospitals, schools, churches, and inhabited dwellings, and so on, is a violation of the laws of war.

Try those who are not killed outright in military tribunals, hang ever last damn one that is convicted, and televise the executions live around the world. We need to stop worrying about what they might do to us, and make them worry every day about what we are going to do to them. If it takes area bombing of cities where the sympathetic locals are tolerating or even harboring them, then so be it. I believe a lot of civilians in Muslim countries are sympathetic to these bastards, and they should be made to appreciate the consequences of siding with war criminals who are bent on destroying us.
 
Amadeus said:
Complete and total bullsh!t. What's Islamaphobic is when people use statistics from the worst Muslim countries to justify the bigotry of Muslims living in Western nations -- most of who are no worse than Christians.
Click to expand...

Really? How many Christians have committed honor killings in the US?
 
Grant said:
Americans overwhelmingly believe that "torture" is sometimes justified. In fact it was not even defined as 'torture', though the leftists prefer that word. The majority of the American people, bless 'em, are correct.
Click to expand...

Maybe some Americans have had enough of Democratic Grubering.

We do need a trial though. Feinstein need to face justice.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Except they weren't all terrorists. Many were and are innocent. Like the six released this week after years.
Click to expand...

What does this mean? Does this mean they were not unlawful combatants?

Why do so many of you believe this is a criminal justice issue? Fools treat war as a crime. An unlawful combatant should be tried, convicted and executed after it is clear he has nothing left to tell us.

Or, if he cooperated he should be encouraged to remain in the general pool of detainees.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Please Google Mahar Arar, renditioned by the CIA to be sodomized and tortured for 2 years by America's buddies in Syria. His crime was having a name similar to a Palestinian.
Click to expand...

One person? And you failed to mention this?

In December 1997, Arar moved with his family to Ottawa from Montreal and listed Abdullah Almalki as his "emergency contact" with his landlord. . . . Before Project A-O Canada was created, CSIS had been monitoring Almalki at least since 1998 with respect to his relationship with Ahmed Khadr, an Egyptian-born Canadian and alleged senior associate of Osama bin Laden. . . . While testifying at the Guantanamo military commission for alleged child soldier Omar Khadr, FBI agent Robert Fuller testified that Khadr had identified Maher Arar as among the al-Qaeda militants he met while in Afghanistan.​

Of course there is more to this story. Why did you omit so much?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom