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Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

DaveFagan said:
Well, you can say "Liberty and justice for all,"
or you can say "Liberty and justice for just a few."
Pick one.
I should make a note that if it's just for a few, I would
guess the few to be the top .01%, because when justice
is select that is what happens. Wait, didn't a bunch of the
top .01% banks just get caught breaking laws and got
fined billions of dollars without any criminal prosecutions.
Maybe it already is "Liberty and justice for a few" already.
Click to expand...

Do you know where that phrase comes from? Do you know that it's just a part of a sentence that refers to this nation and it's people?
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Giving rights to enemies now? Great idea... :roll:
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Yeah, it's why they're called "human" rights, not "American" rights.

And this guy apparently isn't an 'enemy' just a guy caught up in the hysteria, which is of course why we should respect human rights.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
It's pathetic that this is what we call "torture", and denegrates people who were REALLY tortured in the past, including those at Abu Ghraib where it went much further to physical forms and such. Peopel aren't dying from these techniques (at least they shouldn't, if they do, then people need to answer for that of course). Ultimately, we did get information from these sessions. I don't understand why this is any issue when our enemies are chopping off heads...
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It's an issue because the U.S. doesn't compare itself to terrorists to get moral authority for it's acts.

Hard to believe a libertarian has so little regard for human rights. Can't tell if this is a real response or sarcasm.
 
DaveFagan said:
Guantanamo is leased from Cuba, ergo not US Territory. You're in Criminal Justice so you must know that no evidence obtained through torture is admissable in US Courts. As an example, if they tried KSM, a genuine scumbag, in a Stateside Court all evidence would be thrown out as fruit of a tainted tree because he was waterboarded 83 times or more. So he is tried by a military tribunal and he'll definitely be found guilty. Now, Khaled Sheik Mohammed is a genuine piece of crap, but does the USA represent the justice it so proudly declares in the Pledge of Allegiance, "with liberty and justice for all," or does it represent kangaroo Courts. You are in a good position to make an informed decision.
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You're right in the case that no evidence obtained through torture is admissable in U.S. Courts. My argument is not one of criminal charges. As any naval and embassy territory is indeed U.S. territory (exactly why you can't be arrested by another nation's law enforcement on U.S. embassy territory) I'm saying that the actions are unconstitutional. We are guaranteed that we shall never have to face cruel and unusual punishment. The only reason that these "inmates" aren't receieving due-process is because there's no criminal charges being brought up. This is technically a very lenghty and unconstitutional interrogation.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
It's pathetic that this is what we call "torture", and denegrates people who were REALLY tortured in the past, including those at Abu Ghraib where it went much further to physical forms and such. Peopel aren't dying from these techniques (at least they shouldn't, if they do, then people need to answer for that of course). Ultimately, we did get information from these sessions. I don't understand why this is any issue when our enemies are chopping off heads...
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According to George W. Bush, it is indeed torture if it causes organ failure or death which has both happened.
 
JUG said:
You're right in the case that no evidence obtained through torture is admissable in U.S. Courts. My argument is not one of criminal charges. As any naval and embassy territory is indeed U.S. territory (exactly why you can't be arrested by another nation's law enforcement on U.S. embassy territory) I'm saying that the actions are unconstitutional. We are guaranteed that we shall never have to face cruel and unusual punishment. The only reason that these "inmates" aren't receieving due-process is because there's no criminal charges being brought up. This is technically a very lenghty and unconstitutional interrogation.
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Yes. That is correct. Six inmates released to Uruguay after being detained 12 years and no charges filed. Mostly because they were not terrorists but mistaken renditions (kidnappings). They make the claim that Guantanamo is extra-territorial. The whole rendition and torture program is a bag of gooey, greasy, grimy, gopher grunt, eh?
 
JasperL said:
One innocent cab driver detained by mistake died, but otherwise, good point.
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It's completely disgusting how many posters are giddy with the thought of torturing another human being. The president made the point that it doesn't matter that torture isn't effective. Even if it were effective, we shouldn't do it because it goes against everything that we stand for.

However, so many of these other posters seem to be making another point. That the information is secondary. We should torture to enact revenge on people we suspect may have been involved in harming us. They deserve everything we can do to them, rule of law and due process be damned. It's a ugly side to our country.
 
DaveFagan said:
Yes. That is correct. Six inmates released to Uruguay after being detained 12 years and no charges filed. Mostly because they were not terrorists but mistaken renditions (kidnappings). They make the claim that Guantanamo is extra-territorial. The whole rendition and torture program is a bag of gooey, greasy, grimy, gopher grunt, eh?
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I couldn't agree with you more, my friend.
 
It amazes me sometimes, the extent to which some Americans seem to hate their own country. I can't imagine hating Canada so much that I'd contemplate spreading such nonsense.
 
CanadaJohn said:
It amazes me sometimes, the extent to which some Americans seem to hate their own country. I can't imagine hating Canada so much that I'd contemplate spreading such nonsense.
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Well, you know, Canadians are nice people, while we Americans are loud and obnoxious. :mrgreen:
 
clownboy said:
Well, you know, Canadians are nice people, while we Americans are loud and obnoxious. :mrgreen:
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Individually and in small numbers, you're almost Canadian in your mien - in larger numbers, however, you've got a point.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
It's pathetic that this is what we call "torture", and denegrates people who were REALLY tortured in the past, including those at Abu Ghraib where it went much further to physical forms and such. Peopel aren't dying from these techniques (at least they shouldn't, if they do, then people need to answer for that of course). Ultimately, we did get information from these sessions. I don't understand why this is any issue when our enemies are chopping off heads...
Click to expand...

America: "Hey, at least we don't chop off heads..."

*wipes a patriotic tear from his eye*
 
CanadaJohn said:
It amazes me sometimes, the extent to which some Americans seem to hate their own country. I can't imagine hating Canada so much that I'd contemplate spreading such nonsense.
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It may not be the greatest thing to hate your own country, but that's what makes our nation such a great nation. We can express our opinions and feelings on forums like these and in public. Of course the government won't always be right, and we get to rip them a new one every time they're wrong if we so choose.
 
JUG said:
I recently came across this article of Samir Naji's 13 year incarceration at Gitmo. Obviously, this is a pretty convienent time for him to tell the tales of his cruel and unusual punishment. Which made me think; isn't that exactly what's being clamed here? Cruel and unusual punishment on United States territory. I've heard from my professor that an obvious consequence of closing Gitmo would be that if we brought these inmates back to the United States we would have to give them due-process. Well...I may be mistaken, but last time I checked, Guantanamo Bay is United states territory. I found it interesting how this man's story was written. Check it out if you wish to.

Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames U.S. flag - CNN.com
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What we did to "protect this nation" does shame everything we stand for. We are no longer a nation based on the principles of freedoms and rule of law. But it should surprise no one how we got to this point. But to the article, there is no reasonable argument to justify many of the things we do out of national security. A security that we now need simply because of how we view our role as the world's police department.
 
whysoserious said:
People literally did die... but ok. If it's not torture, you do it for a few months.
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I'm sure it sucks, and that's the damn point. But effective and humane torturing is very similar actually to corporal punishment in that, it doesn't leave any physical scars but you get what you're looking for. By the way, all the stuff that this guy goes through, is the same stuff that most of our special forces have to go through. Fact is, that we have gotten information from these procedures so I'm not sure why we're discussing it when we're willing to do this to our own. Again, it sucks, but after a few months then he will physically be fine.

Lutherf said:
Actually, it would be German law that would determine his eligibility for German citizenship. He's an American citizen because his parents are American citizens.
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I know he has dual citizenship, so do with that what you will...

DaveFagan said:
Well, you can say "Liberty and justice for all,"
or you can say "Liberty and justice for just a few."
Pick one.
I should make a note that if it's just for a few, I would
guess the few to be the top .01%, because when justice
is select that is what happens. Wait, didn't a bunch of the
top .01% banks just get caught breaking laws and got
fined billions of dollars without any criminal prosecutions.
Maybe it already is "Liberty and justice for a few" already.
Click to expand...

Or it can mean Liberty and Justice for All Americans. Simple as that. The Rich (more importantly famous) will always get a better deal, it sucks but that's how things area. Not sure why you bring that up in this context but, w.e.

JasperL said:
Yeah, it's why they're called "human" rights, not "American" rights.

And this guy apparently isn't an 'enemy' just a guy caught up in the hysteria, which is of course why we should respect human rights.
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Again, we're trying to protect Americans, which the intel we gathered went a long way to doing. Look, it goes back to the fact that in this world, as has become abundantly clear, all we can and should concern ourselves is dealing with direct threats to America and her Allies. I mean, it's nice to talk about "human rights" and such when there are rules of war established. But these guys don't care about that, so whatever steps we can take to avoid another attack that could take the life of my family, your family, or even you, I'm all for.

JasperL said:
It's an issue because the U.S. doesn't compare itself to terrorists to get moral authority for it's acts.

Hard to believe a libertarian has so little regard for human rights. Can't tell if this is a real response or sarcasm.
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It's real, and the reason I have such a response is because I respect the enemy that we're fighting. Look, if we were talking about fighting an entity that abides by the rules of war, at least in terms of the treatment of prisoners, than we'd have a different discussion. As it stands though, these people don't care. So I'm perfectly comfortable with the "torture" techniques as I know what they are, that being sensory and sleep deprivation sorts of stuff and waterboarding. It would cross the line for me, which it did with Abu Ghraib, when it moves to mutilation of prisoners are really anything that would push them to be killed. At that point, you've moved from wanting to gather information to trying to inflict pain.

JUG said:
According to George W. Bush, it is indeed torture if it causes organ failure or death which has both happened.
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But not as an intended consequence of the procedures. I mean, this isn't where you heard stories of stringing up people and hooking up car batteries to testicles which has obviously gone to far. I mean, we talk about the "torture" of these subjects in Guantanomo, but when their not undergoing that, no one wants to mention all the amenities their afforded. Again, the goal should be to get information, and you can't get information from dead suspects.
 
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Hamster Buddha said:
It's pathetic that this is what we call "torture", and denegrates people who were REALLY tortured in the past, including those at Abu Ghraib where it went much further to physical forms and such. Peopel aren't dying from these techniques (at least they shouldn't, if they do, then people need to answer for that of course). Ultimately, we did get information from these sessions. I don't understand why this is any issue when our enemies are chopping off heads...
Click to expand...

Yes there is nothing more pathetic than society evolving toward civility. Thanks for reaffirming my belief that libertarians have no interest in having a functioning society.
 
Declan said:
Yes there is nothing more pathetic than society evolving toward civility. Thanks for reaffirming my belief that libertarians have no interest in having a functioning society.
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How precisely is my support of using some of what you would call "torture techniques", showing that I don't have an interesting in having a functioning society? We're been using torture in one form or another ever since the birth of the Republic, that hasn't stopped out society from evolving.
 
JUG said:
I recently came across this article of Samir Naji's 13 year incarceration at Gitmo. Obviously, this is a pretty convienent [sic] time for him to tell the tales of his cruel and unusual punishment. Which made me think; isn't that exactly what's being clamed [sic] here? Cruel and unusual punishment on United States territory. I've heard from my professor that an obvious consequence of closing Gitmo would be that if we brought these inmates back to the United States we would have to give them due-process. Well...I may be mistaken, but last time I checked, Guantanamo Bay is United states territory. I found it interesting how this man's story was written. Check it out if you wish to.

Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames U.S. flag - CNN.com
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Who cares what a murdering terrorist thinks of what “shames the U.S. flag”?
 
JUG said:
I recently came across this article of Samir Naji's 13 year incarceration at Gitmo. Obviously, this is a pretty convienent time for him to tell the tales of his cruel and unusual punishment. Which made me think; isn't that exactly what's being clamed here? Cruel and unusual punishment on United States territory. I've heard from my professor that an obvious consequence of closing Gitmo would be that if we brought these inmates back to the United States we would have to give them due-process. Well...I may be mistaken, but last time I checked, Guantanamo Bay is United states territory. I found it interesting how this man's story was written. Check it out if you wish to.

Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames U.S. flag - CNN.com
Click to expand...


I just feel so bad for this guy. So misunderstood, so put upon by the very Nation he's vowed to destroy.

Yes, he's as qualified as anyone to define what desecrates our flag and what honors it.

Honoring it is burning it as you dance around shouting death to the great Satan and Israel.

And desecrating it is of-course defending the Nation it represents.

Screw this jackass.
 
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