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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I think the subject who died fits into the first phase of unpreparedness to take on this large task. I believe one other subject died but I have not been able to confirm it.
    Read the report - I don't have to know exactly what JoG went through to be 100% positive his experience was NOTHING like that of the detainees, with regard to waterboarding and all that went with it. At the very least, KSM had 15 sessions, of more than 10 "applications" per session. In some cases 4 'sessions' per day. Towards the end, they used their hands to keep an inch of water suspended above his mouth so it was impossible to breath anything but water. He was ingesting enough water the medical personnel worried about water poisoning and advised that they use saline. One detainee at least went completely unresponsive - passed out from lack of oxygen, aka was drowned and brought back to life.

    The brutal interrogation went on for months, in several cases weeks nearly 24/7, and when they weren't being waterboarded, shackled with their hands over their head in a standing position, or stuffed into a small box, or doused with water in a cold room, etc. Months or years entirely in solitary confinement, completely dark, etc. Some officers witnessing the techniques or doing it were brought to tears, because they weren't sociopaths, and they recognize this wasn't just an interrogation, but treating a human being like a rabid dog.

    No big deal.
    Ok, I guess if a person dying is 'no big deal' that says a lot. But if you read the report, you'll note that people in charge who had NO idea what the hell they were doing was more the norm than the exception.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Of course what actually was done to detainees diverged from the techniques as described.
    I doubt you know that any of those techniques was ever applied other than in the way approved. And even if one was, that is no more than to say individual persons took actions for which they could be punished--not that the United States made it policy.

    and was something we have called torture for a century
    I'm not part of your "we," and neither are many people I've discussed this with. Who has called what actions torture for a century? The enhanced interrogation techniques that were used had not even been proposed until about twelve years ago. And why would it matter what incorrect descriptions of an act someone made? Whether any action the U.S. authorized rose to the level of torture or not is a legal question, just as whether the act of killing a person is justifiable homicide or manslaughter or murder is a legal question. The fact you or anyone else assert that an act is "torture" does not make it that.

    I'm quite sure in the reverse situation - techniques on U.S. personnel held by our enemies - we'll be sure to read the legal analyses of those who held our people to determine if what they did was torture under that country's laws, and if that country's lawyers say "no" (it was legal under local law!!) well, it's not "torture"!!
    I think your statements about this would be more convincing if you had at least read and understood the OLC memos analyzing the question whether any of the enhanced interrogation techniques was torture under U.S. law.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    The United States is a civilized nation and has not authorized the torture of anyone. The U.S. is a signatory to the 1994 Convention Against Torture. After U.S. negotiators had agreed to most of the terms of that treaty and the Senate had ratified those terms, they were codified in sections 2340 and 2340A of the U.S. Code. Those statutes and other U.S. laws make torture a crime. During the months after the 9/11 attacks, the Justice Dept.'s Office of Legal Counsel did extremely thorough studies of the enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, that the Defense Dept. had proposed using in special cases. The OLC concluded that all the techniques, which were described in detail and have been published online, were well within all applicable U.S. laws.
    And we tortured. Its pretty obvious, given the last report and the descriptions of the interrogations that have come out over the years. Yes, some guys came up with a legal rationale, and it will probably be good enough to protect the culprits from getting prosecuted in the US, but just because someone defines torture in a convenient way does not mean its not torture. In fact, the UN disagrees, as does virtually everyone who wasnt involved with this OLC decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Please be specific. What nations are you claiming the U.S. attacked for little reason? Which nations' civilian populations are you claiming the U.S. has "decimated?"

    Evidently we are under your personal definition. I don't accept that as valid, and I doubt many other people do, either. It is interesting to see how many people on this thread are eager to run their country down.
    You must be unfamiliar with the Iraq war. You should read up on it sometime.

    And its not my personal definition of torture. Its the one the world accepts - the UN has clearly stated that this was torture.

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    We are? Which treaty are you claiming the U.S. has violated, and what are the specific violations?
    Funny how you seem not to know this, since its been discussed multiple times, and you refer to it above. It is the UN Convention against torture. Lets revisit what Reagan said when he signed it:

    “The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of [this] Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

    The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution,” – Ronald Reagan’s signing statement on the ratification of the UN Convention on Torture.
    Note that if the US wont track down torturers on its own soil, the UN authorizes any signatory nation to do so when torturers are found in its territory. Thats why a whole lot of people, including GW Bush and Dick Cheney, probably wont be needing passports in the forseeable future.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    The point of the report was to give us that black-eye, it was never the point to make suggestions. The report itself was a political stunt with real implications for us internationally. But we are here now, we cannot unring this bell thanks to the idiots on the hill. However, we did all these things. Why does no one want to talk about that?

    And you should care what the international community thinks, how we have decided to engage the majority of the planet is what really puts us in danger. The fact that we did these things, and now more know about it in detail is what puts us in danger. It is more than the report, it is our willingness to ignore our own principles of law when running around the planet telling the rest of the world what to do.
    I haven't heard much about Gruber in the past couple of days. I wonder why that is.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I haven't heard much about Gruber in the past couple of days. I wonder why that is.
    Gruber's presence hangs over the Leftists heads like the Ghost of Christmas present and every post they make can be measured on the Gruber scaled. Some have actually hit a 10.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    We recognize the Geneva Concentions because it's a signed treaty.

    We recognize the UN Convention against Torture because it's a signed treaty.

    We violated it, though, and that will lead to several Americans not being able to travel freely abroad, because of the chance or arrest and trial. Sorry to break the news to you.
    Do you think, on the same basis, that Obama will be able to travel freely abroad when he leaves office?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    LOL. Have you ever left your county? Your view is s bit myopic.

    I travel internationally regularly, and I feel safer than traveling in major US cities.

    We tortured. We have attacked other nations for little reason and decimated their civilian populations. We are the terrorists, if you stick to the real definition. And we are in breach of a treaty, and people should be punished.
    With those views, I'm surprised, as a man of honour, you haven't renounced your citizenship at this point.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    And we tortured. Its pretty obvious, given the last report and the descriptions of the interrogations that have come out over the years. Yes, some guys came up with a legal rationale, and it will probably be good enough to protect the culprits from getting prosecuted in the US, but just because someone defines torture in a convenient way does not mean its not torture. In fact, the UN disagrees, as does virtually everyone who wasnt involved with this OLC decision . . . And its not my personal definition of torture. Its the one the world accepts - the UN has clearly stated that this was torture.
    Your assertion that the U.S. engaged in torture does not become any more true by your repeating it. Unless you have read and understood the OLC memos, as I have, your dismissive opinions about their legal conclusions are nothing but prattle. Your assertion that "virtually everyone who wasn't involved" with the OLC memos thinks they "defined torture in a convenient way" is not supported by facts. And I could not care less what "the world" accepts or does not accept. What any foreigner, at the United Nations or anyplace else, thinks about matters of U.S. law national security is not relevant. It is all the less relevant when this country's national security is involved.

    You must be unfamiliar with the Iraq war. You should read up on it sometime.
    I don't get my knowledge from reading Mother Jones or watching MSNBC. And the slanderous assertions you made about this country--which you could not back up when I challenged you to--are laughable. Sounds like anti-American propaganda out of an old issue of Soviet Life.

    Note that if the US wont track down torturers on its own soil, the UN authorizes any signatory nation to do so when torturers are found in its territory. Thats why a whole lot of people, including GW Bush and Dick Cheney, probably wont be needing passports in the forseeable future.
    Comic book stuff. You again ducked the question by not specifying what particular actions by the United States allegedly violated the UN Convention Against Torture. Once again, you don't have facts to back up your assertion.

    I'm sure President Bush and Vice-President Cheney feel completely free to travel to whatever nations they please. No foreign nation that signed that treaty would ever dare try to arrest either of them.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    With those views, I'm surprised, as a man of honour, you haven't renounced your citizenship at this point.
    Im surprised that as a Canadian, you think your opinion matters.

    In the real world, what we generally do is work to improve the country, rather than throwing a hissy fit and stomping off.

    I think the torture that the US did was awful, shameful and should never be repeated again. And making that clear is the first thing one needs to do - because I would hope this nation will never accept this type of behavior again.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Your assertion that the U.S. engaged in torture does not become any more true by your repeating it. Unless you have read and understood the OLC memos, as I have, your dismissive opinions about their legal conclusions are nothing but prattle. Your assertion that "virtually everyone who wasn't involved" with the OLC memos thinks they "defined torture in a convenient way" is not supported by facts. And I could not care less what "the world" accepts or does not accept. What any foreigner, at the United Nations or anyplace else, thinks about matters of U.S. law national security is not relevant. It is all the less relevant when this country's national security is involved.



    I don't get my knowledge from reading Mother Jones or watching MSNBC. And the slanderous assertions you made about this country--which you could not back up when I challenged you to--are laughable. Sounds like anti-American propaganda out of an old issue of Soviet Life.



    Comic book stuff. You again ducked the question by not specifying what particular actions by the United States allegedly violated the UN Convention Against Torture. Once again, you don't have facts to back up your assertion.

    I'm sure President Bush and Vice-President Cheney feel completely free to travel to whatever nations they please. No foreign nation that signed that treaty would ever dare try to arrest either of them.
    It was torture according to the UN, to the people who were actually carrying it out, to any reasonable observer. Clinging to your technical judicial analysis is sweet, but not too relevant.

    The US tortured. Theres a 4000 page report out there describing it. I know you like to pretend it isnt happening, but no one else wants to accept your delusions.

    And Cheney and Bush probably dont feel free to travel, much like multiple other CIA agents that have been convicted in other nations already.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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