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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I agree with your last sentence in a general sense, but disagree that it applies in this case.

    If we were capturing people who are perpetrating crimes of humanity against non-Americans and holding them at Gitmo (for instance, Palestinians), that would be a very true statement. But the ones we captured were accused of or thought to have committed crimes against Americans. So it's policing crimes against its own citizens and also, on many occasions (like Khalid Sheik Mohammed), crimes committed on our shores.
    That would make sense (still would not be right, but perhaps sense) if we did something with all this, but largely we just held them somewhere without process or trial. 5, 10, even more years depending upon the subject in question. The jury is still out on the matter of all the torture doing something meaningful for intelligence operations. Those we still hold, unsure of their disposition. Those released, probably right back to the battlefield.

    So at the end of the day we found a mechanism to ignore our own legal and moral principles to questionalbe results but with one hell of a black-eye on our nation internationally speaking. I have to ask, anyone really feel more safe today for this exchange? Anyone make a good argument that the world is more stable or safe with this exchange? I would have a good counter argument for both.

    I do not think we can ever question again why we are hated by a good third of the planet and distrusted by the majority of the planet (including those we call an ally.) Our own citizens even distrust our own government with these abilities to spy on and go after us as well. This is the real consequence of being the world's police department in the manner we have gone about it.

    Where the hell are our ethics? Our principles as a nation given the results we see today from all this?
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Nor do we throw Gay people off a bridge and then stone them to death, and with nice big chunks of Rocks. Like ISIS did yesterday making a big deal all about Executing a Gay Man and making sure word got round to the US.
    No, the US just does business with those who do these things (e.g. Saudis). Certainly America looks the other way with regard to stonings and beheadings when it suits them.

    But then I guess you will tell us we should empathize and respect our enemy for that.....huh? That we need to feel their pain and try to understand them.
    Empathize and respect are two completely different things. You use the terms as if they are related. Maybe you just don't understand empathy.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Nor do we throw Gay people off a bridge and then stone them to death, and with nice big chunks of Rocks. Like ISIS did yesterday making a big deal all about Executing a Gay Man and making sure word got round to the US.

    But then I guess you will tell us we should empathize and respect our enemy for that.....huh? That we need to feel their pain and try to understand them.
    I don't think we should have 'respect' for our enemy but I think we are just better than that. Like we should set an example not lay down in the gutter. Would you want someone a captured Amercian to get that same treatment?
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    That would make sense (still would not be right, but perhaps sense) if we did something with all this, but largely we just held them somewhere without process or trial. 5, 10, even more years depending upon the subject in question. The jury is still out on the matter of all the torture doing something meaningful for intelligence operations. Those we still hold, unsure of their disposition. Those released, probably right back to the battlefield.

    So at the end of the day we found a mechanism to ignore our own legal and moral principles to questionalbe results but with one hell of a black-eye on our nation internationally speaking. I have to ask, anyone really feel more safe today for this exchange? Anyone make a good argument that the world is more stable or safe with this exchange? I would have a good counter argument for both.

    I do not think we can ever question again why we are hated by a good third of the planet and distrusted by the majority of the planet (including those we call an ally.) Our own citizens even distrust our own government with these abilities to spy on and go after us as well. This is the real consequence of being the world's police department in the manner we have gone about it.

    Where the hell are our ethics? Our principles as a nation given the results we see today from all this?
    I don't really care what the majority of the planet thinks of us, to be honest. This isn't something that just happened in the last decade. Not sure why anyone is surprised to think we aren't the most popular people on the planet.

    I don't agree with what they did. But I also don't disagree with what they did. I agree with Brennan that isn't unknowable if it worked or not, but I do wonder in my mind just how much Mohammed would have given up for a cookie and a soft warm bed. But again, that would be like speculating how different my life would have been if I'd taken a left turn on November 18, 1979 instead a right. You can't answer it.

    So now that this is all out in the open (even though everyone knew years ago, which is why the EITs were stopped), what does the report suggest be done about it?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    No, the US just does business with those who do these things (e.g. Saudis). Certainly America looks the other way with regard to stonings and beheadings when it suits them.



    Empathize and respect are two completely different things. You use the terms as if they are related. Maybe you just don't understand empathy.


    Which major countries do not use the Saudis for Business and in not doing so, use regimes or Governments that are worse than the Saud? Then we want all those who do business with the Saud. Major countries and major players. Did you want to harp on your country's Business with the Saud?

    No I understand it. Its you that can't figure out the part about walking in their shoes. I used the terms Hillary stated for the left and their alleged and hyped Smart Power. But then I don't have any trouble with you tearing apart Hillary and the lefts new Term for many things. While trying to explain empathizing with an enemy.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I don't really care what the majority of the planet thinks of us, to be honest. This isn't something that just happened in the last decade. Not sure why anyone is surprised to think we aren't the most popular people on the planet.

    I don't agree with what they did. But I also don't disagree with what they did. I agree with Brennan that isn't unknowable if it worked or not, but I do wonder in my mind just how much Mohammed would have given up for a cookie and a soft warm bed. But again, that would be like speculating how different my life would have been if I'd taken a left turn on November 18, 1979 instead a right. You can't answer it.

    So now that this is all out in the open (even though everyone knew years ago, which is why the EITs were stopped), what does the report suggest be done about it?
    The point of the report was to give us that black-eye, it was never the point to make suggestions. The report itself was a political stunt with real implications for us internationally. But we are here now, we cannot unring this bell thanks to the idiots on the hill. However, we did all these things. Why does no one want to talk about that?

    And you should care what the international community thinks, how we have decided to engage the majority of the planet is what really puts us in danger. The fact that we did these things, and now more know about it in detail is what puts us in danger. It is more than the report, it is our willingness to ignore our own principles of law when running around the planet telling the rest of the world what to do.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    I don't think we should have 'respect' for our enemy but I think we are just better than that. Like we should set an example not lay down in the gutter. Would you want someone a captured Amercian to get that same treatment?
    Mornin AW. Well militarily one can but that doesn't mean you use empathy and respect like Hillary stated. Do you actually think if we lay down an example this will stop the torture that is done to our people?

    What do you think is done to our people now? That aren't even military or Intel people. Nothing but some innocent people like aid workers and Journalists.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    The point of the report was to give us that black-eye, it was never the point to make suggestions. The report itself was a political stunt with real implications for us internationally. But we are here now, we cannot unring this bell thanks to the idiots on the hill. However, we did all these things. Why does no one want to talk about that?

    And you should care what the international community thinks, how we have decided to engage the majority of the planet is what really puts us in danger. The fact that we did these things, and now more know about it in detail is what puts us in danger. It is more than the report, it is our willingness to ignore our own principles of law when running around the planet telling the rest of the world what to do.
    I didn't know that people weren't talking about it? I can't turn on the news without it being discussed.

    If this report makes the international community dislike us even more than they already did, and we are now in danger again - remember, we haven't had an attack on this country in over 13 years - then Feinstein and her fellow Democrats own that responsibility.

    And unless I'm wrong, we stopped EITs a few years ago. Not sure what more can be done now, short of publicly executing the ones who did it, and that won't happen.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    This guy admitted he was a member of the 55th Arab Brigade, participated in the fight at Tora Bora, and was in fact a Bin Laden body guard. Perhaps he'd prefer the treatment accorded Bin Laden instead.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Which major countries do not use the Saudis for Business and in not doing so, use regimes or Governments that are worse than the Saud? Then we want all those who do business with the Saud. Major countries and major players. Did you want to harp on your country's Business with the Saud?
    You can do what you like. I'm saying that it's difficult to single out ISIS for beheadings and stonings when Saudi Arabia is far worse in this regard, and Western countries still do business with them. In fact, ISIS is born out of the religious extremism found in Saudi Arabia.

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