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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    When was the last time it was safe for Americans to travel abroad? Was it during your lifetime?.
    LOL. Have you ever left your county? Your view is s bit myopic.

    I travel internationally regularly, and I feel safer than traveling in major US cities.

    We tortured. We have attacked other nations for little reason and decimated their civilian populations. We are the terrorists, if you stick to the real definition. And we are in breach of a treaty, and people should be punished.
    Last edited by Threegoofs; 12-15-14 at 01:33 AM.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, I would say that is was interpreted differently. But ok...
    No, I agree that if you fight a war you should fight it to win. If that means dropping incendiaries or nukes on Japanese civilians then so be it. But while I make no apologies for it, there's a limit to my rationalization of it as something other than an obscenity. Suffice it to say Truman did what he thought was necessary to end the war and save lives on both sides. I won't second guess him on that.

    But on the topic of this detainee specifically, I want to know why anyone cares what this guy thinks. It might be better if we just let him go so Obama can hit him with a missile and save us the cost of a trial or his continued detention on the taxpayer's dime. Because I, for one, am not buying his story that he headed to Afghanistan looking for work. I mean, here we have one of the poorest countries on the planet with no infrastructure and no jobs other than raising sheep or growing opium poppies and he went there looking for a job? Give me a ****ing break. No one goes to Afghanistan to find a job other than as a jihadist. And I doubt bin Laden just ran into this guy on a street in Kandahar and decided to hire him as a bodyguard. Osama bin Laden was very particular about the people he permitted within his inner circle, including his bodyguards. He denies involvement in terrorism but just happened to end up at Tora Bora with the rest of the al-Qaeda riffraff we captured there? Yeah, right.

    What Times op-ed from Gitmo left out | New York Post
    Нава́льный 2018

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    No, I agree that if you fight a war you should fight it to win. If that means dropping incendiaries or nukes on Japanese civilians then so be it. But while I make no apologies for it, there's a limit to my rationalization of it as something other than an obscenity. Suffice it to say Truman did what he thought was necessary to end the war and save lives on both sides. I won't second guess him on that.

    But on the topic of this detainee specifically, I want to know why anyone cares what this guy thinks. It might be better if we just let him go so Obama can hit him with a missile and save us the cost of a trial or his continued detention on the taxpayer's dime. Because I, for one, am not buying his story that he headed to Afghanistan looking for work. I mean, here we have one of the poorest countries on the planet with no infrastructure and no jobs other than raising sheep or growing opium poppies and he went there looking for a job? Give me a ****ing break. No one goes to Afghanistan to find a job other than as a jihadist. And I doubt bin Laden just ran into this guy on a street in Kandahar and decided to hire him as a bodyguard. Osama bin Laden was very particular about the people he permitted within his inner circle, including his bodyguards. He denies involvement in terrorism but just happened to end up at Tora Bora with the rest of the al-Qaeda riffraff we captured there? Yeah, right.

    What Times op-ed from Gitmo left out | New York Post
    No doubt this is based upon your vast experience living in that region as a destitute inhabitant.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    No doubt this is based upon your vast experience living in that region as a destitute inhabitant.
    No experience necessary. Just the ability to read and a little common sense.
    Нава́льный 2018

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    LOL. Have you ever left your county? Your view is s bit myopic.

    I travel internationally regularly, and I feel safer than traveling in major US cities.

    We tortured. We have attacked other nations for little reason and decimated their civilian populations. We are the terrorists, if you stick to the real definition. And we are in breach of a treaty, and people should be punished.
    Certainly Americans are safe in other democracies and I assumed it was needless to mention that. Yes, some American cities are unsafe and often little is being done about it.

    But Americans are not the terrorists of the world, despite what you may have learned in school.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    They got the information they sought and that's what counts.
    That's what the CIA tells us, nice to know someone believes them.

    "People Sleep Peacefully in Their Beds at Night Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready to Do Violence on Their Behalf".
    Pretty good quote. Not exactly what Orwell said, but close enough.
    I'm amazed that you would conflate sadistic, demented CIA apparatchiks with warriors who put their lives on the line in combat.
    How much courage does it take to abuse a shackled prisoner?
    I'm doubtful that the putz who came up with the rectal feeding idea was anything but a cretinous weirdo.
    I will say that referring to torture as "enhanced interrogation" is truly Orwellian, though.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    We tortured.
    The United States is a civilized nation and has not authorized the torture of anyone. The U.S. is a signatory to the 1994 Convention Against Torture. After U.S. negotiators had agreed to most of the terms of that treaty and the Senate had ratified those terms, they were codified in sections 2340 and 2340A of the U.S. Code. Those statutes and other U.S. laws make torture a crime. During the months after the 9/11 attacks, the Justice Dept.'s Office of Legal Counsel did extremely thorough studies of the enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, that the Defense Dept. had proposed using in special cases. The OLC concluded that all the techniques, which were described in detail and have been published online, were well within all applicable U.S. laws.

    We have attacked other nations for little reason and decimated their civilian populations.
    Please be specific. What nations are you claiming the U.S. attacked for little reason? Which nations' civilian populations are you claiming the U.S. has "decimated?"

    We are the terrorists, if you stick to the real definition.
    Evidently we are under your personal definition. I don't accept that as valid, and I doubt many other people do, either. It is interesting to see how many people on this thread are eager to run their country down.

    And we are in breach of a treaty
    We are? Which treaty are you claiming the U.S. has violated, and what are the specific violations?

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Those videos were destroyed and largey for the reasons you just described. America's enemies would also like to look at those videos to know who the interrogators were so they could seek revenge on them and, possibly, their families.The CIA really doesn't care whether you agree with the conditions or not. They had more important work to do.


    Where is the problem?
    Right. And?

    I suppose the lesson here is, "Don't murder, or conspire to murder, innocent Americans'.
    Those are descriptions of torture. For those aren't hiding behind self delusion and say they're fine with torturing terrorists, fine. I'm opposed for lots of reasons, but at least that's an honest position. What's chicken crap is pretending that what we did was somehow not torture. If any American was subjected to the totality of the procedures we inflicted on some detainees, not one person would label their treatment as anything other than torture.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    The United States is a civilized nation and has not authorized the torture of anyone. The U.S. is a signatory to the 1994 Convention Against Torture. After U.S. negotiators had agreed to most of the terms of that treaty and the Senate had ratified those terms, they were codified in sections 2340 and 2340A of the U.S. Code. Those statutes and other U.S. laws make torture a crime. During the months after the 9/11 attacks, the Justice Dept.'s Office of Legal Counsel did extremely thorough studies of the enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, that the Defense Dept. had proposed using in special cases. The OLC concluded that all the techniques, which were described in detail and have been published online, were well within all applicable U.S. laws.
    Of course what actually was done to detainees diverged from the techniques as described.

    And I'm glad that if the people doing the procedures decide it's not torture, but just a legitimate interrogation technique that looks like torture and was something we have called torture for a century, that makes it not-torture. I'm quite sure in the reverse situation - techniques on U.S. personnel held by our enemies - we'll be sure to read the legal analyses of those who held our people to determine if what they did was torture under that country's laws, and if that country's lawyers say "no" (it was legal under local law!!) well, it's not "torture"!!

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Your moral flexibility is impressive!
    The difference between us is that I do not rest my arguments based on bedwetting, hand-wringing feelings. You should try it. Knowing what you believe and why does make a difference. When in doubt our default position should be to protect American citizens first, protect the innocent who may be harmed by our actions second, recognize that sometimes bad things happen to bad people so worse things won't happen to American citizens and other innocent people.

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