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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    We are a sovereign nation. We CAN pick and choose. We recognize the Geneva Conventions. Unlawful enemy combatants are war criminals. They are not protected.

    Given that in your mind everyone tortures everybody it would appear that the UN torture treaty, whatever that is, is not very effective.

    We interrogate to get information. That is not torture.
    In truth, if the CIA did torture terrorists in order to save the lives of innocent people, I could live with it.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    We are a sovereign nation. We CAN pick and choose. We recognize the Geneva Conventions. Unlawful enemy combatants are war criminals. They are not protected.

    Given that in your mind everyone tortures everybody it would appear that the UN torture treaty, whatever that is, is not very effective.

    We interrogate to get information. That is not torture.
    We recognize the Geneva Concentions because it's a signed treaty.

    We recognize the UN Convention against Torture because it's a signed treaty.

    We violated it, though, and that will lead to several Americans not being able to travel freely abroad, because of the chance or arrest and trial. Sorry to break the news to you.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I don't care at all about cops and tasers. And the detainees subjected to EIT had every bit of the safeguards as JoG.
    Yes, the simplest example stumps you.

    And I'm not aware that there is video of the treatment of the detainees in those black sites. Over 100 of them. Please point me to those videos so I can verify that the conditions for them were similar to what JoG faced here in America on some U.S. facility, with his friends or colleagues conducting the procedure.

    Here's how the CIA described the waterboarding of one detainee: Abu Zubaydah was described as "hysterical" and "distressed to the level that he was unable to effectively communicate."-^ Waterboarding sessions "resulted in immediate fluid intake and involuntary leg, chest and arm spasms" and "hysterical pleas . In at least one waterboarding session, Abu Zubaydah became completely unresponsive,with bubbles rising through his open,full mouth." Accordingto CIA records, Abu Zubaydah remained unresponsive until medical intervention, when he regained
    consciousness and expelled "copious amounts of liquid."


    And according to the records, this is the overall environment in which the waterboarding happened: "The use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques-
    including "walling, attention grasps, slapping, facial hold, stress positions, cramped confinement, white noise and sleep deprivation"—continued in "varying combinations, 24 hours a day" for 17 straight days, through August 20, 2002}^^ When Abu Zubaydah was left alone during this period, he was placed in a stress position, left on the waterboard with a cloth over his face, or locked in one of two confinement boxes. According to the cables,Abu Zubaydah was also subjected to the waterboard "2-4 times a day...with multiple iterations of the watering cycle during each application."'^^

    You're telling me anyone who did this voluntarily as a learning exercise faced anything like similar conditions? Give me a break - you don't even believe it.

    BTW, I also doubt if JoG got to experience this: "On November ,2002,a detainee who had been held partially nude and chained to a concrete floor died from suspected hypothermia at the facility." Or being kept awake for 180 hours, or sleeping in a small box, or on good days a coffin, always in solitary confinement. Etc.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    And I'm not aware that there is video of the treatment of the detainees in those black sites. Over 100 of them. Please point me to those videos so I can verify that the conditions for them were similar to what JoG faced here in America on some U.S. facility, with his friends or colleagues conducting the procedure.
    Those videos were destroyed and largey for the reasons you just described. America's enemies would also like to look at those videos to know who the interrogators were so they could seek revenge on them and, possibly, their families.The CIA really doesn't care whether you agree with the conditions or not. They had more important work to do.


    Here's how the CIA described the waterboarding of one detainee: Abu Zubaydah was described as "hysterical" and "distressed to the level that he was unable to effectively communicate."-^ Waterboarding sessions "resulted in immediate fluid intake and involuntary leg, chest and arm spasms" and "hysterical pleas . In at least one waterboarding session, Abu Zubaydah became completely unresponsive,with bubbles rising through his open,full mouth." Accordingto CIA records, Abu Zubaydah remained unresponsive until medical intervention, when he regained
    consciousness and expelled "copious amounts of liquid."
    Where is the problem?
    And according to the records, this is the overall environment in which the waterboarding happened: "The use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques-
    including "walling, attention grasps, slapping, facial hold, stress positions, cramped confinement, white noise and sleep deprivation"—continued in "varying combinations, 24 hours a day" for 17 straight days, through August 20, 2002}^^ When Abu Zubaydah was left alone during this period, he was placed in a stress position, left on the waterboard with a cloth over his face, or locked in one of two confinement boxes. According to the cables,Abu Zubaydah was also subjected to the waterboard "2-4 times a day...with multiple iterations of the watering cycle during each application."'^^
    Right. And?

    I suppose the lesson here is, "Don't murder, or conspire to murder, innocent Americans'.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Because it's already been settled....At least for us. A law was passed, the practice stopped, and we were years past this....Now, for political fodder Feinstein has opened the wound. And you did suggest that Bush, or Cheney, or Both should be prosecuted. But that's beside the point.

    The point is Holder had Justice investigate, and prosecuted no one....why?
    But we're obviously not 'past this.' We've got an entire political movement defending it, and Cheney is on our TV saying he'd do it all again in a heartbeat. That's the point of the study and the release, so if you all want to defend torture, we'll at least have a better idea of what it means, instead of the sanitized version put out by the liars and propagandists.

    First of all, reread my comment - I did NOT suggest that Bush, Cheney OR OBAMA should be prosecuted - here's the quote: "I didn't say laws don't matter. Of course they matter with regard to whether we prosecute and jail Cheney and Bush and the people all up and down the line involved in torture, or Obama for the drone program, etc. But no one is talking about that, or at least I'm not."

    And they didn't prosecute anyone probably because it would tear the country in two, and it would require prosecuting the POTUS and VP, who had their minions write the correct legal analyses that justified the program. And Congress was briefed on some unknown elements of the program. I've never argued otherwise.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    We recognize the Geneva Concentions because it's a signed treaty. We recognize the UN Convention against Torture because it's a signed treaty. We violated it, though, and that will lead to several Americans not being able to travel freely abroad, because of the chance or arrest and trial. Sorry to break the news to you.
    When was the last time it was safe for Americans to travel abroad? Was it during your lifetime? It is people like yourself, who may not even be American, who make the claim that Americans torture other people when the lawyers at the time clearly said it was not torture. It is Americans at home, of an obvious lean, who most sympathize with American enemies.

    Terrorists are getting a pass while those who were protecting America are having to go through the wringer to save those who now attack them. Who would seriously want to have a career in the military or the CIA after the people they work for, and sacrifice for, treat them with such disrespect and thanklessness?

    Those like yourself would simply have no idea of how do deal with terrorists or extract information. The world could be exploding while you're the only person in the room nervously fretting about the Geneva Conventions.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Yes it is. Feinstein is a traitor, unindicted. Releasing that report has caused enormous damage to the US. This is why we classify things. This is why the report was initially top secret.
    What caused the damage was our torture program, and now what's causing more is a near entire right wing defending it.

    Don't cry when it is your family murdered by a lone wolf.
    Funny that you're defending the CIA against hacking into the computers of lawmakers, accusing the people they hacked of a crime, lying about it, then doing nothing internally when caught. You are a blind partisan, so don't care when it's the democrats on the receiving end. I'm positive your tune would be different if it was Issa's committee, and DOJ doing the hacking. You should at least pretend to have the slightest bit of impartiality.

    As to the lone wolf, we've been targeted by terrorists for over a decade. They don't need any further motivation because all this was known by them, and has been serving as a recruiting tool since about 2003, which is one of the downsides of the torture program. I have no doubt right wingers will blame anything and everything bad on this report, and ignore all the history from 2001 to this point, but that's just because it doesn't have to have any basis - just blame it on democrats and the base will believe it.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    "Individual slaves did not. But their offspring did."

    Let's see a show of hands. How many black people, descendents of slaves, want a one way ticket back to their roots in Africa?
    I'm not even sure what that means - it's surely a pathetic defense of a couple hundred years of slavery, and another century of blacks being second class citizens in the eyes of the law in the South.

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    That would be grounds for a revolution.

    This is not. He is welcome to have his cabinet draft a memo saying he can seize of of the ISIS weapons.
    Exactly - you'll hide behind the law when it suits you, and disregard the law when it doesn't. As I suggested.....

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    Re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    We interrogate to get information. That is not torture.
    That's an interesting analysis that has appeared nowhere in all of history with regard to the serious determination of what torture is and isn't...

    You're rationalizing, and not doing a great job of it.

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