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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    We are no longer a nation based on the principles of freedoms and rule of law.
    We still have our principles. We just don't always live up to them. Never have. But some we're better at upholding than others.

    First we kept slaves. Then we displaced and massacred Indians when they didn't cooperate with Manifest Destiny. When we decided we wanted to become an imperial power, we manufactured a war with Spain, promising the Filipinos independence if they helped us. After we reneged on our promise to our "little brown brothers" and they fought back, we massacred them, too. Next on the agenda: firebombing German and Japanese civilians. Then when the Japanese still didn't say uncle we nuked them and would have kept nuking them until we turned the entire county in a cinder pile. And we weren't satisfied with winning. We had to make an example of the Germans, so before there was a Marshall Plan there was a Morgenthau Plan that did an excellent job killing more Germans with starvation. Then toss in a few assorted CIA-plotted assassinations/coups over the decades and I have to wonder if there ever was a point in our history when we lived up to our own principles and the rule of law. Even now, liberals rationalize this president carrying out extradjudicial killings with missiles that kill every man, woman, and child in the vicinity but if they're captured we're supposed to read them their Mirandas and give them a lawyer. We sign treaties on the treatment of civilians in wartime but no one should be under the illusion that we won't unleash hell on earth and decimate the cities of any country which likewise threatens us with nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, we're still the only country that's ever used them in anger.

    So I'd say we're still a work in progress and we can improve our record, but if our history has proven anything there's one principle that trumps all of the others: If you're ever in a war, even one you create, just make sure you don't lose.
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    We're having a different conversation than you are, apparently. Whether it violates any law is the least of my concerns and is an appropriate discussion for the SCOTUS blog or something. As I said, and which is just obviously true, almost by definition a state sponsored act of evil or moral repugnance is often if not generally legal. I could cite a dozen examples from OUR history and so could you.
    U.S. negotiators declined to adopt every provision of the Convention Against Torture, exactly because they did not want to tie the hands of any President in dealing with matters of national security. I am satisfied that section 2340 allows U.S. interrogators to deal pretty harshly with savages who have committed war crimes against this country, when the lives of many innocent Americans depend on making them tell what they know, and tell it fast. I am also satisfied that that law, which codifies such provisions of the CAT as our negotiators saw fit to agree to and the Senate saw fit to ratify, is not so broadly written as to make immoral, unconscionable acts legal.

    Your assertion that the government of this country has repeatedly sponsored morally repugnant actions throughout our history is a slander against the United States that is false, disgusting and shameful. Do not try to associate me with your anti-American slurs--I could not cite even one example of any such thing, let alone a dozen.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    We still have our principles. We just don't always live up to them. Never have. But some we're better at upholding than others.

    First we kept slaves. Then we displaced and massacred Indians when they didn't cooperate with Manifest Destiny. When we decided we wanted to become an imperial power, we manufactured a war with Spain, promising the Filipinos independence if they helped us. After we reneged on our promise to our "little brown brothers" and they fought back, we massacred them, too. Next on the agenda: firebombing German and Japanese civilians. Then when the Japanese still didn't say uncle we nuked them and would have kept nuking them until we turned the entire county in a cinder pile. And we weren't satisfied with winning. We had to make an example of the Germans, so before there was a Marshall Plan there was a Morgenthau Plan that did an excellent job killing more Germans with starvation. Then toss in a few assorted CIA-plotted assassinations/coups over the decades and I have to wonder if there ever was a point in our history when we lived up to our own principles and the rule of law. Even now, liberals rationalize this president carrying out extradjudicial killings with missiles that kill every man, woman, and child in the vicinity but if they're captured we're supposed to read them their Mirandas and give them a lawyer. We sign treaties on the treatment of civilians in wartime but no one should be under the illusion that we won't unleash hell on earth and decimate the cities of any country which likewise threatens us with nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, we're still the only country that's ever used them in anger.

    So I'd say we're still a work in progress and we can improve our record, but if our history has proven anything there's one principle that trumps all of the others: If you're ever in a war, even one you create, just make sure you don't lose.
    We used nuclear weapons on Japan because there was a strong possibility that an invasion of Japan would have failed.

    Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan ...

    www.amazon.com/Hell-Pay-Operation.../1591143160Amazon.com


    Hell To Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 is the most ... Take an Extra 25% Off Any Book: Use promo code BOOKDEAL25 at ...
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    We used nuclear weapons on Japan because there was a strong possibility that an invasion of Japan would have failed.
    Like I said, the first principle is don't lose.
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    We still have our principles. We just don't always live up to them. Never have. But some we're better at upholding than others.

    First we kept slaves. Then we displaced and massacred Indians when they didn't cooperate with Manifest Destiny. When we decided we wanted to become an imperial power, we manufactured a war with Spain, promising the Filipinos independence if they helped us. After we reneged on our promise to our "little brown brothers" and they fought back, we massacred them, too. Next on the agenda: firebombing German and Japanese civilians. Then when the Japanese still didn't say uncle we nuked them and would have kept nuking them until we turned the entire county in a cinder pile. And we weren't satisfied with winning. We had to make an example of the Germans, so before there was a Marshall Plan there was a Morgenthau Plan that did an excellent job killing more Germans with starvation. Then toss in a few assorted CIA-plotted assassinations/coups over the decades and I have to wonder if there ever was a point in our history when we lived up to our own principles and the rule of law. Even now, liberals rationalize this president carrying out extradjudicial killings with missiles that kill every man, woman, and child in the vicinity but if they're captured we're supposed to read them their Mirandas and give them a lawyer. We sign treaties on the treatment of civilians in wartime but no one should be under the illusion that we won't unleash hell on earth and decimate the cities of any country which likewise threatens us with nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, we're still the only country that's ever used them in anger.

    So I'd say we're still a work in progress and we can improve our record, but if our history has proven anything there's one principle that trumps all of the others: If you're ever in a war, even one you create, just make sure you don't lose.
    You do realize that you just mischaracterized, or misrepresented that whole string of American history right?
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Like I said, the first principle is don't lose.
    Indeed.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You do realize that you just mischaracterized, or misrepresented that whole string of American history right?
    It's difficult to properly summarize more than two centuries of American history in a paragraph, but all too often I've seen a Fractured Fairytales version of American history that tends to gloss over the fact that throughout our history we've done what we felt we needed to do to survive and prosper, even if that meant we didn't always act like a saint. But if you want to give a specific example of how I've mischaracterized or misrepresented those aspects of American history I touched upon I'd be happy to indulge you.
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JUG View Post
    I recently came across this article of Samir Naji's 13 year incarceration at Gitmo. Obviously, this is a pretty convienent time for him to tell the tales of his cruel and unusual punishment. Which made me think; isn't that exactly what's being clamed here? Cruel and unusual punishment on United States territory. I've heard from my professor that an obvious consequence of closing Gitmo would be that if we brought these inmates back to the United States we would have to give them due-process. Well...I may be mistaken, but last time I checked, Guantanamo Bay is United states territory. I found it interesting how this man's story was written. Check it out if you wish to.

    Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames U.S. flag - CNN.com
    Last I heard a bunch of Cubans dumped here by plane by Castro years ago are still in Federal prisons with no release date.

    So there's precedent for holding people on US soil without due process.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    It's difficult to properly summarize more than two centuries of American history in a paragraph, but all too often I've seen a Fractured Fairytales version of American history that tends to gloss over the fact that throughout our history we've done what we felt we needed to do to survive and prosper, even if that meant we didn't always act like a saint. But if you want to give a specific example of how I've mischaracterized or misrepresented those aspects of American history I touched upon I'd be happy to indulge you.
    It was really in how you characterized it...The point of wars is to win, if we aren't in to do that then don't do it...That many believe is the problem with how we approach them today. Also, considering the bombing of Japan, an argument can be made that in dropping those bombs that ended the war, actually in the long run saved lives.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    U.S. negotiators declined to adopt every provision of the Convention Against Torture, exactly because they did not want to tie the hands of any President in dealing with matters of national security. I am satisfied that section 2340 allows U.S. interrogators to deal pretty harshly with savages who have committed war crimes against this country, when the lives of many innocent Americans depend on making them tell what they know, and tell it fast. I am also satisfied that that law, which codifies such provisions of the CAT as our negotiators saw fit to agree to and the Senate saw fit to ratify, is not so broadly written as to make immoral, unconscionable acts legal.

    Your assertion that the government of this country has repeatedly sponsored morally repugnant actions throughout our history is a slander against the United States that is false, disgusting and shameful. Do not try to associate me with your anti-American slurs--I could not cite even one example of any such thing, let alone a dozen.
    Obviously you're an American white male, right? The USA has been pretty good to you.

    I didn't catch your full justification of slavery or of the Trail of Tears. Please explain it more fully.

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