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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I believe this is relevant to the discussion....

    "There is, first of all, the matter of morality. Critics of enhanced interrogation techniques have taken to saying that Americans don’t torture, period – meaning in this instance that we do not engage in coercive interrogation techniques ranging from sleep deprivation to prolonged loud noise and/or bright lights to waterboarding. Anyone who holds the opposite view is a moral cretin and guilty of “arrant inhumanity.” Or so the argument goes.

    But this posture begins to come apart under examination. For one thing, the issue of “torture” itself needs to be put in a moral context and on a moral continuum. Waterboarding is a very nasty technique for sure – but it is considerably different (particularly in the manner administered by the CIA) than, say, mutilation with electric drills, rape, splitting knees, or forcing a terrorist to watch his children suffer and die in order to try to elicit information from him. Waterboarding is a technique that has been routinely used in the training of some U.S. military personnel – and which the journalist Christopher Hitchens endured. I certainly wouldn’t want to undergo waterboarding – but while a very harsh technique, it is one that was applied in part because it would do far less damage to a person than other techniques. It is also surely relevant that waterboarding was not used randomly and promiscuously, but rather on three known terrorists. And of the thousands of unlawful combatants captured by the U.S., fewer than 100 were detained and questioned in the CIA program, according to Michael Hayden, President Bush’s last CIA director, and former Attorney General Michael Mukasey – and of those, fewer than one-third were subjected to any of the techniques discussed in the memos on enhanced interrogation."

    Article Morality And Enhanced Interrogation Techniques Commentary Magazine

    Good read.
    Can anyone take you seriously when you're main thesis is that you think the people you are arguing against are "pussies"? You've really killed any credibility you had (I don't know if you had any before).
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Can anyone take you seriously when you're main thesis is that you think the people you are arguing against are "pussies"? You've really killed any credibility you had (I don't know if you had any before).
    You can bait and troll, and stalk all you want...Not taking the bait...I'm moving on, you should too.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    "We made people uncomfortable. We did it so they would tell us what they knew about future attacks."
    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    "Uncomfortable." You do realize that sounds ridiculous. When it was done to us, it was torture. Now we've redefined the horrific physical and psychological effects of torture to making people "uncomfortable." Question, though - if it just makes people uncomfortable, why would we need medical personnel on hand when we do it? No one has ever died from being uncomfortable.
    Let me take a slightly different approach.
    We made people uncomfortable so they would cooperate with us to tell us the things they knew. We ddid it to identify and interrupt potential future attacks. We also did it to identify and fill the gaps in our understanding about how Al Qaeda and the Taliban worked. We used hard approaches to break hard people. It worked. We know a great deal about how Al Qaeda was organized, how it communicated, in short how it planned, organized, trained, financed and carried out attacks.

    We made people uncomfortable for good reasons. We ramped up to war after a successful attack that killed about 3,000 Americans and devastated an American city. We also believed there would be additional attacks.

    From the two reports, Feinsteins treasonous report and the CIA rebuttal, it is clear that there were problems during the ramp up. The databases and procedures for handling the detainees were not in place. We had not created effective techniques to identify and repeatedly hammer cultural weaknesses the detainees were likely to have. In some cases people who should not have been involved in the interrogations were because they were the only people who were available. These problems were sorted out over time.

    I have not created a timeline yet but suspect the "highlighted" abuses occurred during this period.

    An additional thought is that the difference between interrogation and torture can be a fine line. If we are tormenting someone to break his will so he will cooperate and then he does we have no further need, while he is cooperating, to harshly interrogate him. If we are tormenting someone simply for the sake of tormenting him without regard for the information he might provide then that crosses into torture. For me the line is clear. For many of you that line may be invisible

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You asked how many detainees weren't high value targets. The answer is the vast majority.

    And what your response above glosses over is most were released after months or years of "enhanced" interrogation, solitary confinement, etc.
    Other than pointing me to a wiki page that spoke of those released you have not given me evidence that the majority of those held in Guantanamo are not high value leadership or unlawful combatants.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You can bait and troll, and stalk all you want...Not taking the bait...I'm moving on, you should too.
    Why should anyone even take the time to respond to you if you've already deemed them a pussy before you've even read their argument?

    I have nothing to move on from, I'm just pointing out that you're not a person worth taking seriously. And I will continue pointing it out until you recant your asinine assertion.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I've sided with, among others, the person who designed the SERE training program for the Navy, interrogators who spent a career actually trying to get information from captives through traditional means, many members of the top military chain of command, etc. If they are all traitors, then the term just means that they "disagree with right wing apologists for torture."
    I would expect that one or two misguided individual might side with you. It is no surprise that a few people would hold opposing views. But I want to see their statements in context. Links please.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Why should anyone even take the time to respond to you if you've already deemed them a pussy before you've even read their argument?

    I have nothing to move on from, I'm just pointing out that you're not a person worth taking seriously. And I will continue pointing it out until you recant your asinine assertion.
    Ok, not all liberals are pussies, just immature ones that bait and stalk....Like you are doing now.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm just curious where and how you draw that line around torture. What makes waterboarding torture, when done TO us, but not-torture when done by us? Is it length of time or what? As far as I can tell, it boils down to U.S.A.! U.S.A.!U.S.A.! We don't do bad things!!
    I believe I answered this a post or two back. Rather than repeat what I wrote scroll back a few messages.

    Ultimately it comes down to purpose.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Bizarre - who said it was OK? You quoted me saying it was NOT OK, so you must have been responding to a person not me or in your imagination.

    And, again, justifying evil by pointing out that it's not as evil as some other act isn't actually a legitimate exercise.
    Are you unfamiliar with Obama's aggressive drone program he uses to assassinate people he chooses? Those strikes routinely kill nearby people. I do not see much argument against killing people the way i do about making them uncomfortable.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If the report damages the U.S. or CIA, it's the acts that the report documents and not revealing them that did the damage. If we don't want the release of what we do to damage the country, we should not do those acts. Only idiots believed we could have an extensive "Enhanced Interrogation" program, renditions, etc. and keep that secret because unfortunately for the government we have a free press and free speech in this country.
    No. It is the report. And the damage has been done. The US will become isolated even more than under Obama. We will see Americans killed by lone wolf attacks within this country. We will see successful recruiting for the Jihadists. And the CIA will be demoralized and neutered. These are all bad things that flow directly from Feinstein's treasonous release of this report.

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