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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Give me a break. JoG volunteered to do it, done by his friends or allies, controlled the extent of it by his own admission, was almost surely given a way to stop it during the process, started the day from his own bed, shower, with coffee, a danish, etc. and knew without any doubt at the end of the day he'd go home to same. Etc.

    BTW, if you're tased 183 times in five sessions by the police, is that not-torture because the police might have been tased in training?
    That gives you some idea how controlled and careful was the US activity.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    There I put it back just for you...Anything else you'd like to whine about?
    No one gives a **** what you do. It's just asinine that you call everyone pussies but edit out "tough guy". Is your brain stem functioning properly because that doesn't make any ****ing sense. LOL
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Another guy who is not man enough to say what he means. Say it, don't imply it, big guy.
    What's to say that hasn't been said? There's not much I can add to the conversation apart from what I mentioned earlier. It's an observation I believe is correct.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Now Obama just drops drones on them, killing everyone in the vicinity and no intelligence is acquired.. Is it just me or is the left less forgiving when Republicans protect the country and their 'ethics' and morals' take a holiday when Democrats are ordering drone attacks or 'EIT?
    I don't mind the drone strikes, but I mind using them as a replacement for capture-and-interrogate.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, gosh, if the people asked to find a legal rationale for torture somehow managed to place waterboarding in a legal not-torture box, then that's all that need be said. Why are we wasting time talking about moral and ethical issues at all, when the lawyers, hired by the people who wanted to torture detainees, found that, yes, you can do so, have spoken.

    You've got to be joking citing those two as evidence for anything.

    And I'll just note that you're all too willing to stridently disregard reasoned legal opinions of SC justices, but only when they don't come to conclusions you like, so I have no idea why you think this kind of argument is persuasive, especially in this context. Take any abuse of civil liberties or act of evil by ANY government. Almost by definition the abuse was placed into a box that made it "legal" at the time and place. We could quickly list 100 examples, here and abroad of "legal' but evil or morally repugnant acts.

    Bottom line is anyone with a loved one subjected to what Yoo and Bybee concluded was legal not-torture is lying or very adept at self delusion if they say they'd conclude their loved one was subjected to legitimate interrogation techniques and that the interrogators would be justified in relying on a single admission by them during or after they were tortured/subjected to EIT. If you were waterboarded and believed it would stop the waterboarding, you and me and everyone here would admit to ANYTHING - that you were a space alien from another planet, a secret spy for Putin, a FDR's reincarnated dog, whatever. That's what torture does. You don't get those kinds of guaranteed results from any kind of legitimate "interrogation."
    No, I'm not joking about anything. You can give us your personal musings about what's moral and what's icky all day long, and it will say absolutely nothing about the only question that counts in this matter--whether any of the enhanced interrogation techniques violated any laws. In any case, I could just as easily question the morality of risking the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocent people, just so we wouldn't have to get rough with a few mass-murdering rats to make them tell us what they knew. It's clear you would have been content to let them get killed, while we dawdled and kept asking these bastards nicely to answer our questions.

    I think Professor Yoo's legal arguments are very persuasive. By implying he's an unethical liar, rather than presenting arguments to the contrary, you're inviting people to suspect you're just taking the cheap, easy way out because your game is weak. What's keeping you? Let's see what you've got. Using the knowledge of the law about torture you claim to have, please explain, in detail, citing specific cases and statutes, how any of the enhanced interrogation techniques violates any U.S. law against torture.

    You can't, because they don't.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    What's to say that hasn't been said? There's not much I can add to the conversation apart from what I mentioned earlier. It's an observation I believe is correct.
    As I said to your cohort (what's it feel like to be affiliated with a guy like j-mac), if you are so sure liberals are pussies, why not go to a rally full of liberals and yell it out? Head to one of those "I can't breath" rallies, wear a sign that says liberals are all pussies, and then report back to me and let me know how it worked out.

    It's easy for you to act tough on the Internet, guy. No one is impressed by you.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    There is a difference between 183 dunkings and the treatment in the legal brief. That difference is that between torture and unpleasant treatment. As aggravating as it is for activists of some persuasions to have to forfeit such a wonderfully emotionalizing catch word, it is dishonest to use it for the actions that were permitted.
    It's nothing more than your opinion on what is and isn't torture, and it's not shared by many with a lot more real world experience in it.

    And I'm really unclear on how and where one draws this imaginary line. The purpose of waterboarding is the same whether you label it torture or use the Orwellian term EIT. Technique is the same, the results are the same, the prisoner suffers the same pain, panic, etc. What you're saying is there is a line somewhere that is determinable about how many times or how long is 'torture' and how many times it's not-torture. Explain that line if you don't mind and how you draw it.

    It has to have something to do with the effects on the person, which would vary widely from person to person. But if you say that what was outlined in the legal brief and how it was used in practice is different, seems to me you're saying that if the technique doesn't have the intended effect - KSM was resistant and able to handle it better than expected - in the REAL WORLD, we just did it until it did have the intended effect. So where is the line? And why would I care where it was if we ignored the line when we needed to in order to get the desired effect. The line was just there for people to make themselves feel better about what we did.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's nothing more than your opinion on what is and isn't torture, and it's not shared by many with a lot more real world experience in it.

    And I'm really unclear on how and where one draws this imaginary line. The purpose of waterboarding is the same whether you label it torture or use the Orwellian term EIT. Technique is the same, the results are the same, the prisoner suffers the same pain, panic, etc. What you're saying is there is a line somewhere that is determinable about how many times or how long is 'torture' and how many times it's not-torture. Explain that line if you don't mind and how you draw it.

    It has to have something to do with the effects on the person, which would vary widely from person to person. But if you say that what was outlined in the legal brief and how it was used in practice is different, seems to me you're saying that if the technique doesn't have the intended effect - KSM was resistant and able to handle it better than expected - in the REAL WORLD, we just did it until it did have the intended effect. So where is the line? And why would I care where it was if we ignored the line when we needed to in order to get the desired effect. The line was just there for people to make themselves feel better about what we did.
    I don't really think it is his opinion. Torture is a word - it has a regular definition and a legal definition. By the dictionary definition, "enhanced interrogation" is certainly torture:

    Torture - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    : the act of causing severe physical pain as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something

    : something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience
    Under International Law it is clearly torture as well:
    APT - A legal definition of torture
    "Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    No argument. Doesn't mean liberals as a base support it, regardless of what some guy hiding behind a computer screen says while calling 40% of the country pussies.

    Realllll men of Geniusssss. Mr. All Liberals are Pussies guy... because calling people pussies on the Internet is the true sign of toughness.
    It's not so much a name as a general characteristic of liberals. You may be a tough guy liberal physically but if you support liberalism in general then you will be thought of as a pussy. That's the opinions others will hold and you should just accept that and move on. That slotting happens to non-liberals who are called 'racist', misogynist, etc. as well but you'll probably be silent when that unfairness occurs. That's why the pussy label.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You are using intelligence and facts against emotion and self loathing. It's an uphill battle.
    My goal is never to convince leftist dim bulbs--their faith in their quasi-religion is unshakable--but to show reasonable people that they are dim bulbs.

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