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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I don't know what that means. The law on this subject has been established for a long time--see, e.g., Ex Parte Quirin. The U.S.--despite Mr. Obama's efforts to make nice to various Islamist thugs--remains at war with Muslim jihadists around the world. This country doesn't need to justify drawing up rules for military tribunals and trying unlawful enemy combatants in them. Nor does it need to justify executing any convicted of war crimes.

    Thirteen years after an attempt to decapitate the government of the United States, which involved the murders of almost three thousand people and cost countless billions in economic damage, the man who openly admits--boasts about--being the mastermind of the plot, far from being executed for it, as he should have been a dozen years ago, has never even been tried. It would be hard to imagine a more effective way to encourage our enemies by showing them our lack of resolve.
    The thing that procedure disregards is that leaders must lead. That requires taking the others with you.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    In what way is waterboarding toture? Don't be silly. It depends on the aplication. As prescribed, it is an insult to people that have been tortured to say that that is torture.
    The simulation of drowning is torture. Sorry to burst your bubble, chief.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    In what way is waterboarding toture?
    This way:

    Torture, according to the 1984 United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:

    ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. --UN Convention Against Torture[5]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    This statement conflicts with the one below. The grunts who supposedly crossed the line were acting on approved orders from their superiors all the way to the WH. So if you want to prosecute, that's the ultimate target, and we won't do that, so why would I support only prosecuting a few low level grunts who are made to be fall guys?



    I just disagree 100%. Once you agree that waterboarding is an acceptable technique, you've obliterated any meaningful moral or ethical line, and all that matters is results. What you're saying, ultimately, is that after we eliminate all bounds of behavior, we're shocked that a person who is ordered to be cruel to a prisoner for purposes of extracting information is TOO cruel. That is of course the documented history of torture as a tool and why we cannot accept "a little bit of torture but not too much" as official policy.

    It's not unlike soldiers asked to kill the enemy without remorse. When we order them to do that, we KNOW they'll make horrible mistakes and will sometimes kill innocents. The video of the helicopter gunship firing on the van with journalists is an example. Those men in that helicopter aren't criminals. We make them into killers and they do as ordered. When they cross a line, that's (with VERY few and extreme exceptions) on the people ordering them into battle.

    So when extreme cold is an acceptable technique for breaking a prisoner, we should expect some will die of hypothermia. When they do, if we want to prosecute someone, it's the person who decided that torture is a tool we will use, not the person or persons who take torture a bit too far.
    You are exaggerating, as your position is otherwise intenable.
    Last edited by joG; 12-14-14 at 06:37 AM.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    This way:
    As i pointed out earlier, the word severe is in the aftermath and context of Auschwitz and not Seseme Street. It is a blatant affront to the survivors of Dr Mengele to equate the enhanced interrogation methods as described in the legal paper with torture. To do so is reprehensible.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by CMPancake View Post
    The simulation of drowning is torture. Sorry to burst your bubble, chief.
    Don't be silly. I've been there, tried it, got the t-shirt. Unpleasant it is and not something we would want to allow the police to use. Maybe we don't want to use it on terrorist combatants. But torture? Somebody has been pulling your leg.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Don't be silly. I've been there, tried it, got the t-shirt. Unpleasant it is and not something we would want to allow the police to use. Maybe we don't want to use it on terrorist combatants. But torture? Somebody has been pulling your leg.
    Did you volunteer to get waterboarded?

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by CMPancake View Post
    Did you volunteer to get waterboarded?
    I just wanted to know, what I was talking about and had it done to me a little harsher than proposed in the legal brief. We do not want the police treating citizens suspected of crimes that way. But to call it torture in that relatively light form is absurd, makes mock of the meaning of the word and especially of the victims of the real thing.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I just wanted to know, what I was talking about and had it done to me a little harsher than proposed in the legal brief. We do not want the police treating citizens suspected of crimes that way. But to call it torture in that relatively light form is absurd, makes mock of the meaning of the word and especially of the victims of the real thing.
    I like how a torture advocate tries to get the moral outrage high ground.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You may be right but there must be a word that comes somewhere between just asking questions and actual torture. Enhanced interrogation techniques will have to cover the situation until a less clumsy explanation comes along.
    We've defined "torture" to mean stuff we don't do. Waterboarding is the easiest - we prosecuted those who did it TO us, but when we do it it's not "torture." There's no reason for that other than we did it. Or maybe someone can tell us not-torture U.S. waterboarding differs from the torture kind?

    Do you have a credible source for this information?
    Take a look at the list of approved interrogation techniques and imagine that happened to your son. If you can honestly tell me if he was waterboarded 183 times in 5 session, and subjected to the rest of those techniques (hypothermia, standing in stress position for 40 hours, etc.) that he wasn't tortured, he was just subjected to legitimate interrogation techniques, then you are a different man that I am.

    They could be killed, as is being done now, but that way they give up less information. While EIT may be harsh, the victim will still be alive after he tells what the interrogators want to know.
    Change that "EIT" to torture and I agree. No need to pretend it's something different.

    Actually about 65% of Americans support EIT and I remain suspicious of those who don't.
    I am suspicious those who don't want our country to abandon everything I thought it stood for.

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