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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I don't know what that means. The law on this subject has been established for a long time--see, e.g., Ex Parte Quirin. The U.S.--despite Mr. Obama's efforts to make nice to various Islamist thugs--remains at war with Muslim jihadists around the world. This country doesn't need to justify drawing up rules for military tribunals and trying unlawful enemy combatants in them. Nor does it need to justify executing any convicted of war crimes.

    Thirteen years after an attempt to decapitate the government of the United States, which involved the murders of almost three thousand people and cost countless billions in economic damage, the man who openly admits--boasts about--being the mastermind of the plot, far from being executed for it, as he should have been a dozen years ago, has never even been tried. It would be hard to imagine a more effective way to encourage our enemies by showing them our lack of resolve.
    Speaking of a 'lack of resolve'. Dorothy Rabinowitz: The Unfinished Business of Fort Hood - WSJ

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm really not - review the thread.
    I understand your point but we respectfully disagree.
    More than anything, if we believe torture is a necessary tactic to win or protect our citizens (I don't, but it's not irrational to believe it is) then let's be honest - we will torture prisoners if we believe the ends justify that. But that is the question, the high road or the low road of torture. Whether we do that because it works is a decision we need to make, which is why disclosing what a torture program looks like as implemented is important. That our torture program is less barbaric than that of the Japanese doesn't make ours not a torture program. Etc.
    You are using the term 'torture' rather loosely. There are 'enhanced interrogation' techniques which are not defined as torture and in fact water-boarding was not defined as torture either. We may have to be more specific as to what, with the involvement of all pertinent representatives, passes as legitimate torture. It seems that everyone in the Security Council at the time once agreed, along with White House council, that water-boarding was not torture, or they just ignored the issue..
    This controversy is shamefully being used for political purposes and only does potential harm to the American people and their allies. http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...boarding/?_r=0

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I understand your point but we respectfully disagree.
    You are using the term 'torture' rather loosely. There are 'enhanced interrogation' techniques which are not defined as torture and in fact water-boarding was not defined as torture either. We may have to be more specific as to what, with the involvement of all pertinent representatives, passes as legitimate torture. It seems that everyone in the Security Council at the time once agreed, along with White House council, that water-boarding was not torture, or they just ignored the issue..
    This controversy is shamefully being used for political purposes and only does potential harm to the American people and their allies. http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...boarding/?_r=0
    We made up the term "enhanced interrogation techniques" in an Orwellian exercise to obscure what they entail.

    Do you really want to argue that if one of our soldiers was waterboarded 183 times in five sessions, thrown against a wooden wall, kept awake for a week or more, or interrogated non-stop for two weeks, kept in solitary for months or years, had food inserted into his rectum, subjected to bitter cold, etc. that as a country we'd accept that such treatment was no more or less than a legitimate interrogation of him? We all know we'd conclude he was tortured, and we'd be right, but we want to call it "EIT" and pretend that changes what happened.

    I think it's chicken crap - the coward's way to avoid facing the consequences of our decisions.

    And what does potential harm to the U.S. is us adopting torture as an interrogation tool, and then having a national discussion about it where about half cheer it on.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    This was pretty funny.
    I must say that despite your typical Darth Vader-like crankiness---possibly, wine induced---you've got a pretty good sense of humor.
    Nice to see you can absorb jabs and not take the posting process too seriously.
    See you around.
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Really? This is torture:






    What kind of psychopath reads that and detracts... "only pornography"????
    Forcing someone to be cold all the time can be considered slow murder. The body having to go into overdrive to keep itself warm burns more calories than even exercising.
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Hilarious. Of course that avoids the point and you know it. What you want to say is the treatment you label 'torture' when done to our personnel is NOT torture when done BY us.

    I understand it requires elaborate mental gymnastics to hold your position, but I don't understand why you feel that's necessary.
    Nothing done by the US thus far constitutes torture.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Like I said, we disagree 100%. It's simple to construct a scenario where they'd meet your test -certainly raping the wives and dismembering the children would serve as a deterrent to others contemplating joining in the fight against the U.S. Wiping out any village in which even ONE 'terrorist' is discovered might 'work' as another large deterrent. Maybe we have a detainee for whom torture isn't working - well, if the prospect of us cutting his child's fingers and toes one at a time would get him to talk, it would aid in the war effort and per your philosophy should be adopted.
    That would be a commander's decision whether a legitimate war aim was furthered.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    We made up the term "enhanced interrogation techniques" in an Orwellian exercise to obscure what they entail.
    You may be right but there must be a word that comes somewhere between just asking questions and actual torture. Enhanced interrogation techniques will have to cover the situation until a less clumsy explanation comes along.

    Do you really want to argue that if one of our soldiers was waterboarded 183 times in five sessions, thrown against a wooden wall, kept awake for a week or more, or interrogated non-stop for two weeks, kept in solitary for months or years, had food inserted into his rectum, subjected to bitter cold, etc. that as a country we'd accept that such treatment was no more or less than a legitimate interrogation of him? We all know we'd conclude he was tortured, and we'd be right, but we want to call it "EIT" and pretend that changes what happened.
    Do you have a credible source for this information?

    I think it's chicken crap - the coward's way to avoid facing the consequences of our decisions.
    They could be killed, as is being done now, but that way they give up less information. While EIT may be harsh, the victim will still be alive after he tells what the interrogators want to know.

    And what does potential harm to the U.S. is us adopting torture as an interrogation tool, and then having a national discussion about it where about half cheer it on.
    Actually about 65% of Americans support EIT and I remain suspicious of those who don't.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    There is an important distinction there, and I'll give you an example. One of my best friends from high school was actually born at Ramstein in Germany. Now the question comes up, is he German (as he was born in the country) or is he American (as he is born on a US Base)? Turns out, he could actually apply for citizenship to both. I don't remember how he described the process, but at certain point, (or maybe he still does) have the option to apply for German citizenship should he choose. So in terms of the discussion, the legalities of US laws do cover these US Bases, at least for the most part.
    Any person born of US parents anywhere in the world is a US citizen. Many countries also acknowledge citizenship for that person if he was born in their country. Nothing unusual about that.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    We approved waterboarding, which we prosecuted people for as war crimes, torture. How do you make the leap that when done TO us, it is torture, but when done BY us it's not-torture "by a very long shot"?

    And if many of our 'techniques' were done to your son in a police station in Atlanta, you would RIGHTLY conclude he was tortured by his own government. It's impossible that any of us could see someone we love subjected to these 'techniques' and conclude anything else, but we go through elaborate self denial to avoid facing the truth of what we did to people not-like-us.

    If we want to accept that, fine. I'll disagree, vehemently, but if we do, at least let's be honest about it.
    In what way is waterboarding toture? Don't be silly. It depends on the aplication. As prescribed, it is an insult to people that have been tortured to say that that is torture.

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