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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Jack says that there is no "evil" in war. I disagree. He says that if we need to rape women and dismember children to win, we'll do it, should do it, and evil isn't a concept that can be applied to those acts in that situation.
    Is that a direct quote?

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    The acts you mention presumably would fail the test of aiding to win the war or protect our citizens. If that was the case then they would not be justified.
    Like I said, we disagree 100%. It's simple to construct a scenario where they'd meet your test -certainly raping the wives and dismembering the children would serve as a deterrent to others contemplating joining in the fight against the U.S. Wiping out any village in which even ONE 'terrorist' is discovered might 'work' as another large deterrent. Maybe we have a detainee for whom torture isn't working - well, if the prospect of us cutting his child's fingers and toes one at a time would get him to talk, it would aid in the war effort and per your philosophy should be adopted.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Is that a direct quote?
    These are:

    It's not just we, it's universal. The unacceptable becomes acceptable in direct proportion to the potential for defeat.
    I responded: "Sure, evil is universal. We agree on that. What we shouldn't accept is evil in service of some 'greater good' is not evil."

    Jack: You are applying the word "evil" where it has no meaning. It's like asking what color is a symphony.
    There's more, just review the thread. I won't find the quote, but he said the immorality would be a country's leaders not doing 'whatever it took' (not a direct quote, but fair to the meaning) to win a war and protect its people. And subsequent discussions indicates there are no moral or ethical bounds on 'whatever it took' in his view - "evil...has no meaning" in that situation.

    Here's one more:

    The acts you mention ["raping women, dismembering children, etc."] presumably would fail the test of aiding to win the war or protect our citizens. If that was the case then they would not be justified.
    His objection is entirely practical. So if those acts did aid the war, they would be justified.
    Last edited by JasperL; 12-13-14 at 02:52 PM.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Have you found them helpful in any way? I ask because they do not seem to have helped. You side with the nation's enemies. That indicates a lack of reasoning skills and no conscience whatever.

    There is no need for an answer.
    BS! If he sided with America's enemy he would be siding with you. You and the other right-wing nuts are the real enemy.

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    Why so serious?

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    How many did we torture?
    Oh, so you're no longer worried about trying prisoners of war for crimes? How convenient.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    [QUOTE=JasperL;1064086495]These are:
    It's not just we, it's universal. The unacceptable becomes acceptable in direct proportion to the potential for defeat.
    And that is quite likely true. But of course this does not apply to what the CIA or legal council suggested at the time because the US was never threatened with defeat.
    I responded: "Sure, evil is universal. We agree on that. What we shouldn't accept is evil in service of some 'greater good' is not evil."
    Which misses the point. No one committed 'evil' in any 'greater good'. You are reading far too much into what was said.
    There's more, just review the thread. I won't find the quote, but he said the immorality would be a country's leaders not doing 'whatever it took' (not a direct quote, but fair to the meaning) to win a war and protect its people. And subsequent discussions indicates there are no moral or ethical bounds on 'whatever it took' n his view.
    Do you feel the United States should accept defeat more easily and accept their fellow Americans be murdered rather than gathering intelligence through waterboarding, for example? Do you feel your idea of 'the high road' is more important than the lives of your fellow Americans?

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    BS! If he sided with America's enemy he would be siding with you. You and the other right-wing nuts are the real enemy.
    Are ISIS left wing or right wing? Does the left have any idea on how to deal with terrorist groups like ISIS?

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    Why so serious?

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What would you call the Tokyo Trials (IMTFE) and the like?

    And there's a difference anyway because in a traditional "war" those held as POWs (as opposed to accused war criminals, subject to hearings like IMTFE) were released or subject to some tribunal at the end of the war. With the indefinite War on Terror (TM) that's not an option because the war won't end or we/they have no way to determine an end except when we arbitrarily say the "war" has ended, and they'd be effectively sentenced to life in prison without charge or trial.
    Their organizations and sponsors are free to surrender at any time. Then everyone can go home.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    In principal, i have no objections. It would have to be not only spelled out in law, though. It would have to be fully explained and publicly transparent, why we chose this method.
    I don't know what that means. The law on this subject has been established for a long time--see, e.g., Ex Parte Quirin. The U.S.--despite Mr. Obama's efforts to make nice to various Islamist thugs--remains at war with Muslim jihadists around the world. This country doesn't need to justify drawing up rules for military tribunals and trying unlawful enemy combatants in them. Nor does it need to justify executing any convicted of war crimes.

    Thirteen years after an attempt to decapitate the government of the United States, which involved the murders of almost three thousand people and cost countless billions in economic damage, the man who openly admits--boasts about--being the mastermind of the plot, far from being executed for it, as he should have been a dozen years ago, has never even been tried. It would be hard to imagine a more effective way to encourage our enemies by showing them our lack of resolve.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And that is quite likely true. But of course this does not apply to what the CIA or legal council suggested at the time because the US was never threatened with defeat.
    Which misses the point. No one committed 'evil' in any 'greater good'. You are reading far too much into what was said.
    I'm really not - review the thread.

    Do you feel the United States should accept defeat more easily and accept their fellow Americans be murdered rather than gathering intelligence through waterboarding, for example? Do you feel your idea of 'the high road' is more important than the lives of your fellow Americans?
    More than anything, if we believe torture is a necessary tactic to win or protect our citizens (I don't, but it's not irrational to believe it is) then let's be honest - we will torture prisoners if we believe the ends justify that. But that is the question, the high road or the low road of torture. Whether we do that because it works is a decision we need to make, which is why disclosing what a torture program looks like as implemented is important. That our torture program is less barbaric than that of the Japanese doesn't make ours not a torture program. Etc.

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