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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not hardly. It's a lie to say we can't deal with the world without being immoral and evil.
    It's not just we, it's universal. The unacceptable becomes acceptable in direct proportion to the potential for defeat.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That's not the point - if your son gets captured, you would be SATISFIED he was treated fairly if he got the "he has no rights" treatment and "enhanced interrogation" you support for people not like you.

    The point is we should treat our detainees with the same respect for rights that we'd expect/demand of others for our people. If your son/brother was waterboarded 5/183 times in custody, you know and I know and we all know you'd consider his treatment torture. And if some Congressman, a democrat, in testimony, said, "He wasn't tortured, he was just made to feel uncomfortable, I'm not sure the U.S. can intervene. His rights are being respected." if you were half a man, you'd likely have to be restrained to keep from punching him.
    This is not a theoretical discussion, btw. If my son were captured by any of our present adversaries I would fully expect that he would be mistreated because every opponent of the US since WW2 has done that. Moreover, my son knows that and goes about his business regardless. On the theoretical level, our people merit civilized treatment because ours are not unlawful combatants. On the real level, that has never mattered to our opponents. I had the same view while I was on active service.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I don't consider water boarding as practiced by the US to have been torture.
    I'm asking what this difference is, and you can't say. It's not surprising because waterboarding is waterboarding - it's torture.

    But make no mistake, if incontrovertible torture were the difference between victory and defeat, or between successful and unsuccessful defense of the US, then I would be wholeheartedly in favor of it. The moral shortcoming is among those who would limit what they would do to defend our country or secure victory.
    I guess we just disagree. It's not a 'moral shortcoming' to consider many acts during wars too evil to contemplate doing to others. What you're saying is it's immoral to not embrace evil, so long as your ends are justified. That's the attitude of a sociopath, and a moral degenerate.

    If you want to say that is what governments will DO, that's probably true, but that just demonstrates that no matter what form government takes it will embrace evil to ensure its survival, and the U.S. is no different than any tin pot dictator in that regard.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm asking what this difference is, and you can't say. It's not surprising because waterboarding is waterboarding - it's torture.



    I guess we just disagree. It's not a 'moral shortcoming' to consider many acts during wars too evil to contemplate doing to others. What you're saying is it's immoral to not embrace evil, so long as your ends are justified. That's the attitude of a sociopath, and a moral degenerate.

    If you want to say that is what governments will DO, that's probably true, but that just demonstrates that no matter what form government takes it will embrace evil to ensure its survival, and the U.S. is no different than any tin pot dictator in that regard.
    I'm saying that in the context of warfighting, good and evil have their place at the level of war aims, but at the tactical level they don't have meaning. At the tactical level there is only effective and ineffective. And it's not the dictators who are the most problematical -- they can safely ignore any supposed obligation to their people. The more democratic is a government the more firmly is it bound to do everything to protect its citizens and achieve victory.

    As for water boarding, any comparison of the Japanese practice and our own reveals significant differences.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You're just saying that if it involves national security, all criticism is off limits. That's ridiculous
    . Did I say that? Jeez, why can't leftists even quote properly and respond to a quote directly instead of responding to statements they themselves create? This happens with such frequency that it seems never getting it quite right is the signature of every leftist.
    It's not 'immoral' to disagree with your government on matters of war.
    Again, who claimed it was?
    It would be unconscionable to expect citizens to not question decisions with such horrific costs, which we know going in. People of high ethics, fully understanding the issues, WILL disagree, often strongly, and when they do they have an obligation to protest what they feel is wrong.
    Granted people with some knowledge have a duty too respond, not forgetting whose side they're on and how their government might be more effective. But let's not suppose one side is imbued with 'ethics' while their fellow citizens lack both ethics and morals. That feeds directly into your enemies hands, who also feel they're more ethical and moral than you. To believe that ethics and morals are exclusive to yourself is not rational.
    We could post dueling opinion pieces all day, and yours is from an obviously right wing leaning outlet. But I'll take an early passage - 4th paragraph:
    Anyone who disagrees with a leftist has to be 'right wing'. This is what you've been taught and this is what leftists clearly believe.
    First of all, that no republican signed off in this era is hardly surprising. 20 years ago it would be - not today when votes that break exactly along party lines are the norm. Second, anyone with the slightest interest in the report knows that the committee has been fighting and negotiating with the WH and CIA for a year or so about what can and what cannot be released, at least. So the committee did not 'sit on' the report for two years. That's just misleading to the point of a lie.
    Like Obamacare, this was designed, promoted and subsequently released on the American public by just one party. How is this constant divide doing the country any good? Can you not see the rifts these one-side initiatives are creating?

    And, more importantly, this $4 million document, where no one involved was actually interviewed, effects national security and American lives. How is that ethical or moral?

    Second, the author says several times the report is 'untrue' and 'highly biased' but doesn't provide details.
    This article is just one among many being written. It is very worthwhile to do research and seek out diverse opinions on this very important document. Read what John Yoo has to say. He was certainly in a position to know what was going on. Read also what the CIA has to say, the former President and vice-President. How can there be a legitimate report when the sources with the information weren't interviewed?John Yoo: A torture report for the dustbin - NY Daily News
    The side of the U.S.
    No, you are with the Democrat Party. This is another clear instance of that party putting politics above the interests of the American people.
    You avoided the point - questioning the government is the norm from conservatives on every issue except apparently the CIA on this subject.
    We should always question the government but in sensitive areas of national security then perhaps there has to be a time of trust. No one should put the lives of their fellow Americans at risk in order to feel good about themselves.
    Again, not the point. If right wingers can't accept the line from the various people about Benghazi after many hearings, you can't then question my 'morality' when I do the same with the CIA. .
    Try to forget about this left wing/right wing wing/middle of the road argument. This is about national security and the lives of American people, as well as the lives of others in the democracies and those align themselves with the US in the war against Islamism. This does no good for anyone but instead creates unnecessary harm.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    This is not a theoretical discussion, btw. If my son were captured by any of our present adversaries I would fully expect that he would be mistreated because every opponent of the US since WW2 has done that. Moreover, my son knows that and goes about his business regardless. On the theoretical level, our people merit civilized treatment because ours are not unlawful combatants. On the real level, that has never mattered to our opponents. I had the same view while I was on active service.
    You're nicely avoiding the question by concluding that our enemies would disregard his rights and torture him. The point is you wouldn't be satisfied with that treatment - you labeled it 'mistreatment' but want to argue if we adopt the same methods, it's not 'mistreatment.' It's nothing more than the U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. justification. If we do it, it's good, if your enemies do, somehow different.

    And U.S. soldiers are sometimes unlawful combatants, unless the special forces operating in deep cover wear approved uniforms while doing it. If one of them is captured and is interrogated non-stop for two weeks, waterboarded 183 times over 5 sessions, kept awake for 6 days, shackled with his hands over his head, standing for 3 days, subjected to freezing conditions, solitary confinement for months or years, had food inserted into his rectum for no purpose, etc. we will obviously and correctly conclude he was tortured.

    It would be a lot easier if you just embraced your own conclusions. You are fine with torture, in part because our enemies will do it, and in part because war is hell, we kill people without remorse and so there is no moral line between killing and torture when employed to win a war. I get it, but don't understand why you feel it necessary to go through the mental flips to pretend that's not your position.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    I have no idea what you're trying to say. Good day.
    No idea what he was trying to say? I understood it perfectly and so did most others, I'm sure. Perhaps you should start thinking these issues through before responding with those tiresome and meaningless one-liners of yours.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You're nicely avoiding the question by concluding that our enemies would disregard his rights and torture him. The point is you wouldn't be satisfied with that treatment - you labeled it 'mistreatment' but want to argue if we adopt the same methods, it's not 'mistreatment.' It's nothing more than the U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. justification. If we do it, it's good, if your enemies do, somehow different.

    And U.S. soldiers are sometimes unlawful combatants, unless the special forces operating in deep cover wear approved uniforms while doing it. If one of them is captured and is interrogated non-stop for two weeks, waterboarded 183 times over 5 sessions, kept awake for 6 days, shackled with his hands over his head, standing for 3 days, subjected to freezing conditions, solitary confinement for months or years, had food inserted into his rectum for no purpose, etc. we will obviously and correctly conclude he was tortured.

    It would be a lot easier if you just embraced your own conclusions. You are fine with torture, in part because our enemies will do it, and in part because war is hell, we kill people without remorse and so there is no moral line between killing and torture when employed to win a war. I get it, but don't understand why you feel it necessary to go through the mental flips to pretend that's not your position.
    US Special Forces are well aware of the different levels of risk they run under different deployment scenarios. Our treatment of unlawful combatants is not mistreatment because they have no right to expect a Geneva Conventions level of treatment. Our personnel have the right to expect Geneva Conventions treatment except in a very few exceptional circumstances, but we never get it regardless.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It's not just we, it's universal. The unacceptable becomes acceptable in direct proportion to the potential for defeat.
    Sure, evil is universal. We agree on that. What we shouldn't accept is evil in service of some 'greater good' is not evil.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No idea what he was trying to say? I understood it perfectly and so did most others, I'm sure. Perhaps you should start thinking these issues through before responding with those tiresome and meaningless one-liners of yours.
    Perhaps you should save your little admonishments for someone who cares.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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