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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

  1. #551
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    You are not curious.

    Where were the individuals captured? Were they waging war against the "host" country? Were they in uniform and was the war declared? If so they are Prisoners of War and must be treated humanely. Anything else is an act of war. Under an actual leader we might go to war to resolve such a travesty.

    You show yourself as one unschooled.
    If they were like most of our prisoners in GITMO, they were captured on a city street, not engaged in any acts of 'hostility' at that moment, but turned in by a bounty hunter. The point is you're assuming that if they were arrested, they are guilty.

    And to say a leader would go to war to resolve such a travesty just means we'd demand human rights for our own people to the point of declaring war to enforce them. If a country doesn't have the ability to wage war on the U.S., too f'ing bad for their people I guess. It's a nice version of rights you got there - essentially, if you're a powerful country, your people get them. If you're not, then your people don't have any and the U.S. has no responsibility to recognize any human rights for non-Americans. So they're not rights, but whatever can be enforced at the end of a gun.

  2. #552
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    No US adversary since WW2 has treated US captives decently. We have nothing left to lose on that score.
    That's not the point - if your son gets captured, you would be SATISFIED he was treated fairly if he got the "he has no rights" treatment and "enhanced interrogation" you support for people not like you.

    The point is we should treat our detainees with the same respect for rights that we'd expect/demand of others for our people. If your son/brother was waterboarded 5/183 times in custody, you know and I know and we all know you'd consider his treatment torture. And if some Congressman, a democrat, in testimony, said, "He wasn't tortured, he was just made to feel uncomfortable, I'm not sure the U.S. can intervene. His rights are being respected." if you were half a man, you'd likely have to be restrained to keep from punching him.

  3. #553
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    We are making people uncomfortable. They tell us stuff. We combine that stuff with other stuff. Smart people toss it in a salad bowl. What idiot told you it would STOP terrorism?
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    We made people uncomfortable. We did it so they would tell us what they knew about future attacks. You do remember what happened on September 11? Did you go to the streets and pass out candy to the children?

    In the first quote you responded to me after I said that the interrogations hasn't stopped terrorism and you asked what idiot told me it did so I could gather from your next statement you are the idiot saying they do stop future attacks aka terrorism when we interrogate them and they tell us what they know about future attacks, which could stop terrorism from occurring. Because I never said it helped to stop terrorism completely, right?


    Also I understand shoving some food up your ass isn't uncomfortable for you but for others it is a little more than uncomfortable.
    I call my own shots, largely based on an accumulation of data, and everyone knows it.
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    What a lazy individual. Did you plan to actually make a case? It looks to me like the system works pretty well. Most individual were released. Isn't that what you would expect? It is what I would expect.
    You asked how many detainees weren't high value targets. The answer is the vast majority.

    And what your response above glosses over is most were released after months or years of "enhanced" interrogation, solitary confinement, etc.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    You have sided with the traitor.

    It is clear what you are.
    I've sided with, among others, the person who designed the SERE training program for the Navy, interrogators who spent a career actually trying to get information from captives through traditional means, many members of the top military chain of command, etc. If they are all traitors, then the term just means that they "disagree with right wing apologists for torture."

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    It is not torture unless you want it to be. We made people uncomfortable in order to get their information. We all have an agenda. You do. The Red Cross does, I do.

    Yes. I believe we were well served by the men and women who stepped up and prevented additional attacks. And you side with our enemies. You sie with a traitor who has severely damaged the US. She may have done more damage to this nation than anyone other than Obama, Boehner, and McConnell. Not even Feinstein could out do the damage those three have done.
    I'm just curious where and how you draw that line around torture. What makes waterboarding torture, when done TO us, but not-torture when done by us? Is it length of time or what? As far as I can tell, it boils down to U.S.A.! U.S.A.!U.S.A.! We don't do bad things!!

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    We killed American citizens without any due process. We routinely kill family members and bystanders with drone strikes. But that is okay compared to making someone uncomfortable. If we threaten to blow up your kids but don't do it that is horrendous. But if we actually do it that is okay so long as we don't threaten someone first?

    Between you and me, I would prefer that someone threaten that they will kill my children but don't instead of just going ahead and shredding them.
    Bizarre - who said it was OK? You quoted me saying it was NOT OK, so you must have been responding to a person not me or in your imagination.

    And, again, justifying evil by pointing out that it's not as evil as some other act isn't actually a legitimate exercise.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    You won't mind if I don't believe you will you? I could not read a 6,000 page report in two days and I am pretty fast.

    Yes, whatever is in the report the treason is in releasing it. She intentionally damaged the United States and the Central Intelligence Agency. The damage is enormous and long lasting. She must be held accountable.
    If the report damages the U.S. or CIA, it's the acts that the report documents and not revealing them that did the damage. If we don't want the release of what we do to damage the country, we should not do those acts. Only idiots believed we could have an extensive "Enhanced Interrogation" program, renditions, etc. and keep that secret because unfortunately for the government we have a free press and free speech in this country.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Why don't you want prosecutions? Where the approved methods were left behind, it was criminal. Where this was lied about, it was a cover-up and deception of the citizenry. We can not let that precedent stand.
    This statement conflicts with the one below. The grunts who supposedly crossed the line were acting on approved orders from their superiors all the way to the WH. So if you want to prosecute, that's the ultimate target, and we won't do that, so why would I support only prosecuting a few low level grunts who are made to be fall guys?

    We must discuss the enhanced techniques as points on a continuous line from polite questioning to hiding the suspect slowly over months. We need to know, what we are talking about and explain, what we were doing. The approved methods were not torture in any intelligent definition of the word and saying it was, is wrong and doing us immense harm. If we let this stand, it would be crazy.
    I just disagree 100%. Once you agree that waterboarding is an acceptable technique, you've obliterated any meaningful moral or ethical line, and all that matters is results. What you're saying, ultimately, is that after we eliminate all bounds of behavior, we're shocked that a person who is ordered to be cruel to a prisoner for purposes of extracting information is TOO cruel. That is of course the documented history of torture as a tool and why we cannot accept "a little bit of torture but not too much" as official policy.

    It's not unlike soldiers asked to kill the enemy without remorse. When we order them to do that, we KNOW they'll make horrible mistakes and will sometimes kill innocents. The video of the helicopter gunship firing on the van with journalists is an example. Those men in that helicopter aren't criminals. We make them into killers and they do as ordered. When they cross a line, that's (with VERY few and extreme exceptions) on the people ordering them into battle.

    So when extreme cold is an acceptable technique for breaking a prisoner, we should expect some will die of hypothermia. When they do, if we want to prosecute someone, it's the person who decided that torture is a tool we will use, not the person or persons who take torture a bit too far.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I am not sure i know, what you mean. Of course we should "grow up" and learn to live with the fact that the methods approved for interrogation were not torture by a very long shot. That it now seems that in many more cases than thought the allowed limits were overstepped does not change this. Yes, you are absolutely right. We must grow up and stop misusing the language for political reasons.
    We approved waterboarding, which we prosecuted people for as war crimes, torture. How do you make the leap that when done TO us, it is torture, but when done BY us it's not-torture "by a very long shot"?

    And if many of our 'techniques' were done to your son in a police station in Atlanta, you would RIGHTLY conclude he was tortured by his own government. It's impossible that any of us could see someone we love subjected to these 'techniques' and conclude anything else, but we go through elaborate self denial to avoid facing the truth of what we did to people not-like-us.

    If we want to accept that, fine. I'll disagree, vehemently, but if we do, at least let's be honest about it.

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