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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

  1. #341
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, we can debate whether with perfect hindsight it was the right thing to do, but I'll gladly concede that the times have changed and that those who approved the program were acting with honest motives - to get information needed to protect the U.S. and our people here and abroad.

    What worries me, or is a problem IMO, is the attempts to whitewash it and pretend that it was something other than what it was. I don't favor prosecuting anyone for what happened, but I find it abhorrent to cheer it as something we should be proud of or ready to do again. This was torture, and we need to decide if we're a country where torture is accepted as a legitimate interrogation technique.
    Any government fails in its obligation to its people if it fails in war to do everything in its power to defend its citizens and defeat its enemies. This is easily demonstrated. No government anywhere would choose defeat when victory was available through "immoral" means. No government would ever explain to its people that their defeat was OK because their government adhered to its convictions. Not going to happen.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Well, at least you have achieved a Godwin episode. There's quite a wide difference between the way we conducted ourselves and the way our enemies (past and present) conducted themselves. Your claim of equivalence is without foundation.
    You keep saying that but can't avoid or address the fact that we called waterboarding "torture" and charged our enemies who did it TO us with war crimes. I don't need to and did not claim anything like 'equivalence' except on that narrow issue.

    And you have to admit Orwell would be proud of a term like Enhanced Interrogation - gives no hint whatsoever of the intended result, which is to cause enough pain and discomfort and mental anguish, panic, to our enemies that they will talk rather than endure any more of this "enhanced" interrogation.

    BTW, it is unfortunate that the Nazi's used the SAME TERM to describe their new and improved "enhanced!!" interrogation techniques, but that's not a problem I created. I've certainly seen far worse examples that qualify for the Godwin rule.

  3. #343
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The CIA needs to be policed by those we send to Congress to represent us. During the time of waterboarding and other means of making a captured terrorist talk, the Intelligence committee was informed 39 times. During it all, the majority did not have a bit of problem with what was occurring including most Democrats.
    ...cite please...

  4. #344
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    I thought it WAS an instant process.
    As in... "this guy knows where the nukes are, lets waterboard him"...
    Instead, it seems to be a time consuming process.
    By the time a KSM gives up any info, it would be obsolete.
    Terrorists would adjust their MO's when any of their leaders are captured.
    As far as I know it's never been an instant process. Perhaps historically, but usually torture was used to extract a confession - of guilt, of spying, of adultry... whatever. When extracting usable intelligence however, one can't just take the word of the person. Usually it starts with simple things that can be verified easily and over time, working towards more difficult intelligence. I would seriously doubt they'd waterboard KSM for short term information ... it's for more general intelligence, names, future plans, routes, information lines, .... all that can create leads to other intelligence that may be worth taking action.


    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    Again with the long process.
    What sort of actionable info do you think KSM would have stored in his brain that would be critical in the never-ending "War on Terror"
    Do you think he has intricate plots, Osama's phone number, addresses.....what exactly would he give up?
    Don't believe Hollywood movies - they're stories are to get you to pay your 15 bucks, not to be accurate. He has information on person A, who tells low level person B and sends information to person C. The CIA then watches movements of these people using turned agents, locals or I'm sure other ways. Person B may lead to five other people one of whom talks to the guy who runs information back and forth to a compound called the Waziristan Haveli in Abbotabad, which has a guard and locked gates and when observed, looks suspicious. That kind of actionable intelligence can lead somewhere or nowhere... it just so happened that it led somewhere.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  5. #345
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You keep saying that but can't avoid or address the fact that we called waterboarding "torture" and charged our enemies who did it TO us with war crimes. I don't need to and did not claim anything like 'equivalence' except on that narrow issue.

    And you have to admit Orwell would be proud of a term like Enhanced Interrogation - gives no hint whatsoever of the intended result, which is to cause enough pain and discomfort and mental anguish, panic, to our enemies that they will talk rather than endure any more of this "enhanced" interrogation.

    BTW, it is unfortunate that the Nazi's used the SAME TERM to describe their new and improved "enhanced!!" interrogation techniques, but that's not a problem I created. I've certainly seen far worse examples that qualify for the Godwin rule.
    Not all water boarding is equal. EIT falls short of Orwell. In his telling the term would have been Truthful Cooperation Incentives.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Any government fails in its obligation to its people if it fails in war to do everything in its power to defend its citizens and defeat its enemies. This is easily demonstrated. No government anywhere would choose defeat when victory was available through "immoral" means. No government would ever explain to its people that their defeat was OK because their government adhered to its convictions. Not going to happen.
    I don't think you've thought that through at all. Because if you have, then the problem with ISIS and AQ et al isn't what they DO - kill civilians, terror attacks, etc. Those are the options it has to defeat their enemy (us). They can't line up toe to toe, so they're simply fighting the war with the same moral compass - none - that we have, but for practical reasons must choose alternative methods that require them to target innocent civilians, which we'd do in a heartbeat if required to meet OUR objectives.

    Do you believe that?

  7. #347
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I don't think you've thought that through at all. Because if you have, then the problem with ISIS and AQ et al isn't what they DO - kill civilians, terror attacks, etc. Those are the options it has to defeat their enemy (us). They can't line up toe to toe, so they're simply fighting the war with the same moral compass - none - that we have, but for practical reasons must choose alternative methods that require them to target innocent civilians, which we'd do in a heartbeat if required to meet OUR objectives.

    Do you believe that?
    In war there is no imperative other than victory.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Not all water boarding is equal. EIT falls short of Orwell. In his telling the term would have been Truthful Cooperation Incentives.
    Oh, OK, we do it differently!! You should have mentioned it earlier, but if you don't mind can you explain the differences? I've read accounts and the basic process sounds identical - board, incline, restraints, towel, water, choking, can't breath, panic, etc. repeat as needed. Admittedly sometimes they'd strap the person to a ladder, and immerse their head in water, till they started choking, but the end result is or can be the same. Water into the lungs and stomach, can't breath, etc.

    And Truthful Cooperation Incentives is WAY too literal.

    If you don't know better, you can read "Enhanced Interrogation" and believe it's just new AND improved - interrogation enhanced! A better way to ask questions! Green walls versus white! Wood versus foam bottom! Nothing hints that it's interrogation, but with intense physical, or mental pain and anguish, and often a healthy dose of panic thrown in, intended to totally break hardened criminals and killers (i.e. torture!).

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    In war there is no imperative other than victory.
    So you have no actual moral issue with what ISIS does, their techniques. Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    As far as I'm aware, the Saudis are a large source of ISIS funds, but we don't seem to mind much. They cut us in on the oil deals, so all's good.
    Now that is an interesting accusation. ISIS had oil fields. Have we retaken them? Have we destroyed the wellheads?

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