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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    The difference is that Guantanamo is not U.S. territory as you said it was.
    I made no such assertion. It is, however a legal limbo.
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    Good morning MMC! I don't know if we set an example others will follow but I'd rather be the example than acting like the enemy. I can't deny what they are doing to innocent people is horrible but then those people should be captured, tried, and deat with and I just don't think we should be the ones doing it anymore. Let those countries fight the terrorism in their own countries and whatever happens happens. This may sound a little harsh and I do have the utmost respect for aid workers and journalists but they should know what and where they are going and the risks. As I just said in another torture thread, we need to start thinking of ourselves and our country for once.
    Fine. Try them in military tribunals where classified materials can be used against them. then convict them and execute them. Or let them all go in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

    You are naive. War has always been brutal. If you don't like what you see, politely thank the ones protecting your behind and avert your eyes.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Lucky for us we didn't torture.
    It makes me feel better too.

    But he does have a point. Some of the guys and gals we employed did things they shouldn't have and that is not allowed to happen. It would be bad to let that go.

    But at least as important is to stand for what we did allow and to explain why it was the right thing to do.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Lucky for us we didn't torture.
    No, we just did things we called torture when done TO us or our allies, but clearly is NOT "torture" when done BY us. It's just "enhanced interrogation" or preferably "EIT" which of course carries with it none of the unnecessary, heavy moral baggage of 'torture.' Hey, it's not just interrogation, it's "enhanced!" Like an 'enhanced' food product! New and improved! Thank you Orwell for showing us the way!! (with an assist from Nazi propagandists, H/T to someone else who posted that earlier)

    BTW, anyone know if Frank Luntz poll tested 'enhanced interrogation?'

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    I just don't agree with torture as a means to extract knowledge. Obviously for all the people we've caught since the war on terror began over a decade again, all that knowledge hasn't seemed to help us stop terrorism and it's in fact flourishing in some parts. So maybe there is a different possibly better way to do things which don't involve torturing.
    We are making people uncomfortable. They tell us stuff. We combine that stuff with other stuff. Smart people toss it in a salad bowl. What idiot told you it would STOP terrorism?

    For liberal wackos everywhere I offer kumbaya. That always works.


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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Fine. Try them in military tribunals where classified materials can be used against them. then convict them and execute them. Or let them all go in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

    You are naive. War has always been brutal. If you don't like what you see, politely thank the ones protecting your behind and avert your eyes.
    Of course many of those 'protecting our behind' are/were disgusted by the torture/detention program. They believe in what America stands for and it's not that.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    No, we just did things we called torture when done TO us or our allies, but clearly is NOT "torture" when done BY us. It's just "enhanced interrogation" or preferably "EIT" which of course carries with it none of the heavy moral baggage of 'torture.' Hey, it's not just interrogation, it's "enhanced!" Like an 'enhanced' food product! New and improved! Thank you Orwell for showing us the way!! (with an assist from Nazi propagandists, H/T to someone else who posted that earlier)

    BTW, anyone know if Frank Luntz poll tested 'enhanced interrogation?'
    Well, at least you have achieved a Godwin episode. There's quite a wide difference between the way we conducted ourselves and the way our enemies (past and present) conducted themselves. Your claim of equivalence is without foundation.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    It makes me feel better too.

    But he does have a point. Some of the guys and gals we employed did things they shouldn't have and that is not allowed to happen. It would be bad to let that go.

    But at least as important is to stand for what we did allow and to explain why it was the right thing to do.
    Well, we can debate whether with perfect hindsight it was the right thing to do, but I'll gladly concede that the times have changed and that those who approved the program were acting with honest motives - to get information needed to protect the U.S. and our people here and abroad.

    What worries me, or is a problem IMO, is the attempts to whitewash it and pretend that it was something other than what it was. I don't favor prosecuting anyone for what happened, but I find it abhorrent to cheer it as something we should be proud of or ready to do again. This was torture, and we need to decide if we're a country where torture is accepted as a legitimate interrogation technique.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    He is similar to a prisoner of war. An unlawful combatant can, and should be held until the war ends. Or we should have a military tribunal, determine his guilt or innocence and then release or execute him.

    This wasn't shoplifiting.
    13 years, with no evidence that he was a combatant. The war ended in October. That's what I'm saying, kill him or let him go, holding him indefinitely for no given reason is wrong.
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That's a misleading summary of the issues and the result. The facts are different - Germany =/= GITMO, and the Germans actually had a legitimate process that was followed - detailed charges and a hearing and a finding. The "hearings" set up for the prisoners at GITMO were a farce. Kangaroo court is a good enough description, and when decided the Executive branch had six years to set up a legitimate process and deliberately failed to do so.

    So the core issue was whether we (the Executive branch) effectively terminated prisoners' rights held under our exclusive control, on land we'd continuously occupied without interference from the Cuban government for a century based on the distinction between an indefinite lease and U.S. owned territory. And the court rationally held that we could not - that the executive branch could not operate without any restraints with regard to those prisoners, and so ordered the Executive branch to provide these prisoners with actual rights to challenge their detention, which is a basic human right.
    Nothing I said was misleading in the least. I've read Johnson v. Eisentrager, and it directly addressed the central issue in Boumediene--whether an unlawful enemy alien being detained outside sovereign U.S. territory has a right to file a habeas corpus petition in any U.S. court. The answer was no. You are trying to peddle the nonsense that unlawful enemy combatants are entitled to the protections of the Constitution. That helps our enemies spread their propaganda, and it is false. They are not entitled to those protections, nor have they ever been. See Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942). In the Quirin case, a captured Nazi saboteur was electrocuted without ever been indicted by a grand jury or having had a jury trial, even though he was a U.S. citizen! Too G--damned bad, and good riddance. The alien jihadist war criminals at Guanatanamo deserve even less.

    The very purpose of accords like the Geneva Conventions was to encourage belligerents to obey the laws of war by protecting only those who did. Combatants who have violated the laws of war--i.e. war criminals--have almost no rights. They may in some cases be executed right on the spot, after only the briefest hearing. During the Battle of the Bulge, for example, the U.S. Army captured a number of Germans who spoke English, wore American uniforms, and had gone behind U.S. lines to commit sabotage. They were taken to the nearest captain or lieutenant who could be found, and when they couldn't sell their stories, they were taken aside and shot. The Army even documented these executions, which were entirely legitimate, on film.

    It is your statement of what was before the Court in Boumediene that is misleading, as is your statement of its holding. No one had even suggested that the U.S. could "operate without any restraints with regard to" the detainees. Although the detainees were unlawful combatants and not legitimate prisoners of war, the laws of war, as Congress has codified them, still imposed certain restraints. The majority cooked up a constitutional right to habeas under the unconvincing argument that a law Congress had passed regarding treatment of the detainees, the Military Commissions Act, violated the Suspension Clause. This was an outrageous, arrogant intrusion by the Supreme Court on both the Legislative and Executive branches in a matter of war, something almost unprecedented in this country's history and itself unconstitutional. President Bush should have ignored it.

    In the end, the government complied with the habeas requirement the Court imposed not by giving the detainees access to U.S. courts, but rather through Combatant Status Review Tribunals. These are held at Guantanamo, and the transcripts of at least some have been published. I have read parts of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's, for example, on the internet. He and the others have gotten far better treatment than they deserved. The bastards should long ago have been marched onto a gallows, had their filthy necks stretched, and their stinking carcases thrown to the sharks. If, that is, a self-respecting shark would eat such rotten stuff.
    Last edited by matchlight; 12-12-14 at 07:56 PM.

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