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Thread: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

  1. #321
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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Torture dehumanises the torturer as the victim.
    Lucky for us we didn't torture.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What would you call the Tokyo Trials (IMTFE) and the like?

    And there's a difference anyway because in a traditional "war" those held as POWs (as opposed to accused war criminals, subject to hearings like IMTFE) were released or subject to some tribunal at the end of the war. With the indefinite War on Terror (TM) that's not an option because the war won't end or we/they have no way to determine an end except when we arbitrarily say the "war" has ended, and they'd be effectively sentenced to life in prison without charge or trial.
    Yes, they are effectively sentenced to life in prison without trial. What's your point?
    The Tokyo trials concerned unlawful acts by lawful combatants.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I agree with your last sentence in a general sense, but disagree that it applies in this case.

    If we were capturing people who are perpetrating crimes of humanity against non-Americans and holding them at Gitmo (for instance, Palestinians), that would be a very true statement. But the ones we captured were accused of or thought to have committed crimes against Americans. So it's policing crimes against its own citizens and also, on many occasions (like Khalid Sheik Mohammed), crimes committed on our shores.
    They were not committing crimes. They were unlawful combatants waging war. They should have been made uncomfortable for as long as they had something of value to tell us. Then, as in 1001 Arabian Nights, or the Thousand and One Nights for the purists, once the interrogator grew bored they should have been tried, convicted and executed.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    He is similar to a prisoner of war. An unlawful combatant can, and should be held until the war ends. Or we should have a military tribunal, determine his guilt or innocence and then release or execute him.

    This wasn't shoplifiting.
    To be accurate, just go ahead and say, 'should be held forever, without a meaningful opportunity to challenge his or her detention.'

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    That would make sense (still would not be right, but perhaps sense) if we did something with all this, but largely we just held them somewhere without process or trial.
    This is what one does with prisoners of war. They do not get due process. They are being held because they are unlawful combatants who are in a war still being waged against the US. When the war is over they may be returned.

    5, 10, even more years depending upon the subject in question. The jury is still out on the matter of all the torture doing something meaningful for intelligence operations.
    The jury is not actually out. That lying sack of excrement, the treasonous Dianne Feinstein gave aid and comfort to our enemies. She and her Democratic hatchet holders damaged the nation and its ability to protect us. In addition she lied about interrogations not providing information that could be turned into intelligence.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Yes, they are effectively sentenced to life in prison without trial. What's your point?
    The Tokyo trials concerned unlawful acts by lawful combatants.
    Nothing, I suppose, as long as you accept that human beings we capture and can transport to GITMO have no human rights, no right to a list of charges, to examine the evidence, counsel, or a legitimate hearing, and will die in prison if we arbitrarily and our sole discretion deem it so. But I don't think that's a position the U.S. "land of the free" should take unless we are willing to admit our rhetoric about human rights and freedom is BS, means nothing in practice and we're no better than a tin pot dictator in that regard when it suits our purpose.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    And the disingenuous difference is?
    The difference is that Guantanamo is not U.S. territory as you said it was.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Nothing, I suppose, as long as you accept that human beings we capture and can transport to GITMO have no human rights, no right to a list of charges, to examine the evidence, counsel, or a legitimate hearing, and will die in prison if we arbitrarily and our sole discretion deem it so. But I don't think that's a position the U.S. "land of the free" should take unless we are willing to admit our rhetoric about human rights and freedom is BS, means nothing in practice and we're no better than a tin pot dictator in that regard when it suits our purpose.
    It's the price they pay for being unlawful combatants. We owe them nothing.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    I do not think we can ever question again why we are hated by a good third of the planet and distrusted by the majority of the planet (including those we call an ally.)
    You are looking in the wrong place. Our allies cannot trust The One on the golf course. Our enemies recognize that Obama is weaker than anyone except Boehner and McConnell. They despise us because Obama is weak. he is only a danger to American citizens.

    Our own citizens even distrust our own government with these abilities to spy on and go after us as well.
    You conflate the actual mission of the intelligence agencies that comprise the intelligence community and the political instrument that it has become. The intelligence community is supposed to gather intelligence about foreign enemies. Instead it has been turned against American citizens. This is unconstitutional and extraordinarily dangerous. This is worthy of a revolution in and of itself.

    This is the real consequence of being the world's police department in the manner we have gone about it.
    Trite. Old. Worn out. Hackneyed phrase.

    Where the hell are our ethics? Our principles as a nation given the results we see today from all this?
    Grow up. Stop wetting the bed.

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    re: Gitmo inmate: My treatment shames American flag [W:508,759]

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Torture dehumanises the torturer as the victim.
    Possibly. And the price of cheese is?

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