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UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

joG said:
They certainly have had a problem participating in international security matters equivalent to their dependence on global exchange and their wealth. But that is another problem. Why do you bring it up.
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Grant thinks that all liberals are ******s. I'm assuming, if the Italians have deemed what the CIA did was torture, that Grant thinks they must be ******s too.

I'm just waiting for his final confirmation on the pussiness of Italy.
 
whysoserious said:
Grant thinks that all liberals are ******s. I'm assuming, if the Italians have deemed what the CIA did was torture, that Grant thinks they must be ******s too.

I'm just waiting for his final confirmation on the pussiness of Italy.
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Actually, I believe the 23 persons were not sentenced or prosecuted for torture, but for kidnapping someone who was plotting against the US. I really do not think that was illegitimate. After all
They were also acting with the knowledge of the Italian authorities.
Turning the man over to the Egyptians might have been less acceptable.
 
joG said:
Actually, I believe the 23 persons were not sentenced or prosecuted for torture, but for kidnapping someone who was plotting against the US. I really do not think that was illegitimate. After all
They were also acting with the knowledge of the Italian authorities.
Turning the man over to the Egyptians might have been less acceptable.
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Yes, the convictions were for kidnapping , but it was the concept that the kidnapping was leading to torture that drove the prosecution.

For some odd reason, some Western democracies just don't get how wonderful torture is, and how silly it is to think that signed treaties with the UN mean anything.
 
shrubnose said:
Lots of lawyers say lots of things that don't keep their clients out of jail. :roll:
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The Attorney General is the official word on that in the Executive Branch.
 
Threegoofs said:
Yes, the convictions were for kidnapping , but it was the concept that the kidnapping was leading to torture that drove the prosecution.

For some odd reason, some Western democracies just don't get how wonderful torture is, and how silly it is to think that signed treaties with the UN mean anything.
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Now don't get me wrong. Torture is not acceptable to our society.

But try not to look like a hypocrite.
You know most of the European countries' agencies and many governments knew of the renditions and a good number participated. I am not sure of Italy and am not enough interested to research it at this time, but a number of them like Germany delivered prisoners to countries like Syria or Pakistan where agents from the countries actually have been reported to have interviewed the deported. This is taking a very different stand on the moral issue, indeed. You do know that when professor Wolffson proposed discussing what torture is, what interrogation methods should be allowed and which forbidden his employer the government fobade him to continue perusing the questions in public. Yes, a very interesting standpoint.

And the moral outrage you say drove the Italian political judges is really skrewy, when you consider that the Italians let over 3.500 men, women and kids drown while trying to reach the Italian coast this year.

So get real. Get off the moral arguments and try to think about this as an interesting legal problem. How do you want to define torture you profess to abhor? How heavy would you say and how short are we to allow the chain connecting the convicts' ankles to be before we want to call it torture. How long are agents allowed to interrogate the suspect at a time?
 
joG said:
Now don't get me wrong. Torture is not acceptable to our society.

But try not to look like a hypocrite.
You know most of the European countries' agencies and many governments knew of the renditions and a good number participated. I am not sure of Italy and am not enough interested to research it at this time, but a number of them like Germany delivered prisoners to countries like Syria or Pakistan where agents from the countries actually have been reported to have interviewed the deported. This is taking a very different stand on the moral issue, indeed. You do know that when professor Wolffson proposed discussing what torture is, what interrogation methods should be allowed and which forbidden his employer the government fobade him to continue perusing the questions in public. Yes, a very interesting standpoint.

And the moral outrage you say drove the Italian political judges is really skrewy, when you consider that the Italians let over 3.500 men, women and kids drown while trying to reach the Italian coast this year.

So get real. Get off the moral arguments and try to think about this as an interesting legal problem. How do you want to define torture you profess to abhor? How heavy would you say and how short are we to allow the chain connecting the convicts' ankles to be before we want to call it torture. How long are agents allowed to interrogate the suspect at a time?
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So your argument was that everybody does it, so it's OK? And since torture is hard to define, it's not definable so therefore there was no torture?

All I can tell you is that we all know what the CIA did was torture.
 
Excon said:
The UN, as it is, needs to be disbanded.
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That would be possible if there was a better solution than the UN but as we do not have any such a thing and it is very unlikely that something like that can be formed again, this is what we have and all we can strive to do is make it better than it is now (not very difficult in some areas but still, there is no alternative).
 
Threegoofs said:
So your argument was that everybody does it, so it's OK? And since torture is hard to define, it's not definable so therefore there was no torture?

All I can tell you is that we all know what the CIA did was torture.
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Not at all. Only that it is smart to know, what one is talking about. What is certainly not smart is saying that torture should be allowed, because hard to define.
 
Peter King said:
That would be possible if there was a better solution than the UN but as we do not have any such a thing and it is very unlikely that something like that can be formed again, this is what we have and all we can strive to do is make it better than it is now (not very difficult in some areas but still, there is no alternative).
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I am not sure there is no possible alternative. But it was widely discussed in the 1990s into the 2000s and the UN is most probably our best chance to reorganize international security.
 
shrubnose said:
In WWII the USA hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American POWs. That's a fact. :roll:
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Waterboarding was among many charges that they were tried for. Also a fact.

BTW... was waterboarding effective for the Japanese? Did they get good intel from the practice?
 
Threegoofs said:
So your argument was that everybody does it, so it's OK? And since torture is hard to define, it's not definable so therefore there was no torture?

All I can tell you is that we all know what the CIA did was torture.
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Well that's just great....And the next time we have an attack, and we ask the CIA to get information out of our attackers, I guess we can just forget it...Good plan....
 
j-mac said:
Well that's just great....And the next time we have an attack, and we ask the CIA to get information out of our attackers, I guess we can just forget it...Good plan....
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Well, since according to the CIA, torture didn't work at all... I think we will be ok.

If you want to see a detailed report of how we know this, look here.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/12/12/john-brennan-is-still-lying-ctd/

But I think we both know you're not really interested in objective information here.
 
Threegoofs said:
Well, since according to the CIA, torture didn't work at all... I think we will be ok.

If you want to see a detailed report of how we know this, look here.

John Brennan Is Still Lying, Ctd « The Dish

But I think we both know you're not really interested in objective information here.
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At best you are cherry picking about anyone in the CIA and the effectiveness of EIT...As for "objective information" you think that by posting a liberal bomb thrower like Sullivan that shows that you are....:lamo
 
j-mac said:
At best you are cherry picking about anyone in the CIA and the effectiveness of EIT...As for "objective information" you think that by posting a liberal bomb thrower like Sullivan that shows that you are....:lamo
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If one looks at the polls, most Americans are not even paying attention to the report and 69% of them say it shouldn't have been released. Only on political sites like this one is the report even being discussed.

The CIA can't win. Right after 9-11 everyone was saying they should have been more active, if they were more active and done their job better, perhaps 9-11 would not have occurred. Now years after the fact, those same people are saying the CIA has been too active. Heck that is what everyone wanted them to be.
 
j-mac said:
At best you are cherry picking about anyone in the CIA and the effectiveness of EIT...As for "objective information" you think that by posting a liberal bomb thrower like Sullivan that shows that you are....:lamo
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Like I said, you won't look at the link. Your interest in this issue is purely partisan.
 
Perotista said:
If one looks at the polls, most Americans are not even paying attention to the report and 69% of them say it shouldn't have been released. Only on political sites like this one is the report even being discussed.

The CIA can't win. Right after 9-11 everyone was saying they should have been more active, if they were more active and done their job better, perhaps 9-11 would not have occurred. Now years after the fact, those same people are saying the CIA has been too active. Heck that is what everyone wanted them to be.
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100% agree.
 
Threegoofs said:
Well, since according to the CIA, torture didn't work at all... I think we will be ok.

If you want to see a detailed report of how we know this, look here.

John Brennan Is Still Lying, Ctd « The Dish

But I think we both know you're not really interested in objective information here.
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Andrew Sullivan is 'objective information'? Do you believe that?
 
Peter King said:
That would be possible if there was a better solution than the UN but as we do not have any such a thing and it is very unlikely that something like that can be formed again, this is what we have and all we can strive to do is make it better than it is now (not very difficult in some areas but still, there is no alternative).
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Actually there is a better alternative and is being exercised on a largely unofficial basis. There is little the dictatorships and the democracies have in common so why pretend that there is?

A group of democracies under the guidelines demonstrated in the article below would squeeze the dictatorships through a variety of means until the people living under them have some of the fundamental freedoms the rest of us enjoy. http://explorersfoundation.org/archive/anglosphere_primer.pdf
 
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Grant said:
Actually there is a better alternative and is being exercised on a largely unofficial basis. There is little the dictatorships and the democracies have in common so why pretend that there is?

A group of democracies under the guidelines demonstrated in the article below would squeeze the dictatorships through a variety of means until the people living under them have some of the fundamental freedoms the rest of us enjoy. http://explorersfoundation.org/archive/anglosphere_primer.pdf
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The only real power in the world is the security council, that is a fact of life. Only from the UN can international bodies/organs gain real power or legitimacy.
 
Peter King said:
The only real power in the world is the security council, that is a fact of life. Only from the UN can international bodies/organs gain real power or legitimacy.
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Really? What power des the security council have and how does it implement that power? It can be ignored at any time. All we need to is look at the Russian invasion of the Ukraine and see the non-consequences. Just more 'emergency' meetings.
 
Grant said:
Really? What power des the security council have and how does it implement that power? It can be ignored at any time. All we need to is look at the Russian invasion of the Ukraine and see the non-consequences. Just more 'emergency' meetings.
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Although, I do agree with with you, the problem with the Ukraine is that it isn't a part of the UN.
Having said that, the UN is a joke these days, most of the countries are run by a dictator or a totalitarian government.

The UN wouldn't do anything without our money.
 
shrubnose said:
Excon said:
No jurisdiction.
You do understand that that is what is needed, right?

Those countries would not even dare try.
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You might get a surprise in the future.

There are quite a few countries on this planet that don't need to kiss the USA's butt.
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No there will be no surprise.


shrubnose said:
Italy has already tried and convicted some members of the CIA. did you know that?
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:doh
You might want to review the information you think you know to determine if what you said is even relevant.

For what again? Supposed crimes within their jurisdiction, right?

Has it yet dawned on you why I brought up jurisdiction in the first place?





Threegoofs said:
The UN has declared that the CIA personnel who tortured, and by extension, their leaders, can be brought to prosecution in essentially 'any country in the world' by UN treaty.
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:doh:lamo:doh
No they can't be.
 
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