• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

But what if you NEEDED to decapitate the kid or rape the wife to get valuable information on a ticking bomb in an NFL stadium?

Not likely to happen under any circumstances. There are just something things that can't be done. Different people draw that line at different places.

Heck, I'm sure there are some that would object to using harsh language on terrorist detainees.
 
I'm going to disagree with both of you. I don't buy Paschendale's point in the sense that I believe it was intended to produce results. I do not buy that it was done for punitive purposes. Having said that, I do not believe it worked, either. When tortured, people will often tell their tormentors what they want to hear just to make it stop. Happens in police interrogation rooms across the country, too, when psychological interrogation techniques are used.

There is overwhelming evidence that shows torture does not work, in fact leads to more misinformation.

If I understand the psychology, the victim soon learns what his torturers want to hear, and even if innocent, will tell them anything. I would think the experience of US Air Force and Navy pilots shot down in Korea and Vietnam, how they "testified" against "US imperialism" and alleged war crimes; those were understood and forgiven as a wrongful result of torture. Yet, here, so many insist it works. Not for highly trained US pilots it didn't.
 
Yeah and Feinstein's Report was used politically and for that purpose only. Yet like I stated her report shouldn't be even be considered. Here is what Susan Collins has to say bout it, and she was one of the 3 Repubs that wanted to go thru this.


Sen. Collins' Views on Senate Intelligence Committee Report on CIA Interrogation Program


"In addition to the partisan nature of the staff investigation, the report has significant intrinsic limitations because it did not involve direct interviews of CIA officials, contract personnel, or other Executive branch personnel. John Rizzo, one of the chief architects of the program, has stated publicly that he would have been happy to be interviewed, and he said a number of his colleagues would have as well. The absence of interviews significantly eroded the bipartisan cooperation that existed when the SSCI Review began and calls into question some of the report's analysis.

"The lack of interviews violated the Committee's bipartisan Terms of Reference that were approved by an overwhelming 14-1 vote in March 2009. The Terms of Reference describe the purpose, scope, and methodology of the Review, and they include the following statement: "The Committee will use the tools of oversight necessary to complete a thorough review including, but not limited to, document reviews and requests, interviews, testimony at closed and open hearings, as appropriate, and preparation of findings and recommendations." Yet, there were no interviews, no hearings, and no recommendations. By comparison, the SASC's 2008 Inquiry into the Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody included 70 interviews, written responses from more than 200 individuals in response to written questions, two hearings, and at least two subpoenas. "Documents never tell the full story and lack context. As the former Chairman or Ranking Member of the Senate's chief investigative committee for ten years, I found that interviews were always key sources of information for every investigation our Homeland Security Committee conducted. In the 2012 HSGAC investigation into the attacks in Benghazi, for example, we discovered one of our most alarming findings in a discussion with the Commander of U.S. Africa Command, General Carter Ham. We learned that he was unaware of the presence of CIA officers in Benghazi, despite the fact that his Command had responsibility to prepare for the evacuation of U.S. government personnel.

"The bipartisan Terms of Reference also called for the production of policy recommendations, but not one is included in the Review's Findings & Conclusions or its Executive Summary. Ironically, it was the CIA, rather than the Committee, that first developed recommendations to address the mismanagement, misconduct, and flawed performance that characterized too much of the CIA's Detention & Interrogation program. I have identified several recommendations that should be implemented as soon as possible.

Susan M.*Collins (via noodls) / Sen. Collins' Views on Senate Intelligence Committee Report on CIA Interrogation Program

It's all political. The best thing is to let it sit. Like a "truth commission."
 
There is overwhelming evidence that shows torture does not work, in fact leads to more misinformation.

If I understand the psychology, the victim soon learns what his torturers want to hear, and even if innocent, will tell them anything. I would think the experience of US Air Force and Navy pilots shot down in Korea and Vietnam, how they "testified" against "US imperialism" and alleged war crimes; those were understood and forgiven as a wrongful result of torture. Yet, here, so many insist it works. Not for highly trained US pilots it didn't.

The CIA directors, who would have known whether it was effective or not are saying that it was effective.
The people on whom these methods are being used are not highly trained US pilots.
 
Sleep deprivation, Stress positions, Not knowing what day it is, people yelling threats at them. Should we stop all of this for our Special Forces Troops too?

Do you think any of the leftests thinks about when One of these type of Solider's of ours gets captured and what happens to them? Let alone one of our Intelligence people.

Are you really asking me?
 
It probably is here too, but why split those hairs?
I've already stated that if we engaged in the process of torturing prisoners the the people responsible need to be prosecuted.
 
Well, I thought you might want to elaborate for those leftists who thought they held a Higher Moral ground. Like I said, thought! :lol:

I can't fix the those that are stupid.
 
It's all political. The best thing is to let it sit. Like a "truth commission."

To late now.....and this will backfire on the Demos. Not the Repubs. As now the info is out that the CIA briefed 68 members of Congress. That's Right 68 Members of Congress about their Program. Not just the Gang of 8 like most believed.


Disgrace: Senate Democrats' Flawed, Reckless CIA Interrogation Report.....


2) If you have not done so already, stop what you're doing and read this Wall Street Journal op/ed co written by six former CIA directors and assistant directors. It is devastating to the Feinstein/Democratic report, beginning with the astounding fact that its authors did not speak to anybody at the CIA who carried out or oversaw the 'enhanced interrogation' program. Outrageous:

3) For the umpteenth time, Democrats who feign outrage over the CIA's tactics willfully ignore the established fact that Congress' bipartisan leadership teams were extensively briefed on EITs, including water boarding. According to several accounts, reactions from lawmakers ranged from registering no objections to asking if the agency needed to go further. Nancy Pelosi's lies on this matter are uniquely disgusting. Based on documented evidence, the CIA briefed at least 68 members of Congress on the programs. Senate Republicans' competing report on EITs, which has received far less media attention, affirms the CIA's contention that their actions after 9/11 spared innocent lives and weakened Al Qaeda.

(5) The release of this slanted, agenda-driven report has placed more American lives in danger (I actually think transparency is important here, and would have backed the release of a fair assessment, despite the risk), infuriated and betrayed allies who've worked with us, and demoralized many honorable CIA current and former employees:

torture2.png


Disgrace: Senate Democrats' Flawed, Reckless CIA Interrogation Report - Guy Benson
 
The CIA directors, who would have known whether it was effective or not are saying that it was effective.
The people on whom these methods are being used are not highly trained US pilots.

The same CIA that missed the fall if the Berlin Wall, 911 etc., was sure there were WMD's in Iraq?

I am surprised you would take their word at face value. Of course they are going to say that, would you expect them to say. "yeah, what we've been doing isn't really effective but it's fun?

The Senate committee was both parties. I heard no dissent in fact both Republicans and Democrats are behind it. Anything that congress can agree on has to have merit.

To me, the CIA does not and never has.
 
It'll be a cold day in hell before we ask the UN for a hall pass.

What are they going to do? Hug us to death?
 
The same CIA that missed the fall if the Berlin Wall, 911 etc., was sure there were WMD's in Iraq?

Fall of the Berlin Wall surprised everyone with it's suddenness. 9/11 is an instance where the lack of inter-agency communication (FBI - CIA) gave each an incomplete picture insufficient to connect the dots. Yes, there were WMDs in IRaq, but they were moved out (perhaps to Syria?), remenants of said WMDs were in found by US forces in Iraq.

I am surprised you would take their word at face value. Of course they are going to say that, would you expect them to say. "yeah, what we've been doing isn't really effective but it's fun?

If it's not producing useful intel, then why bother? I'm not seeing your logic that they'd continue to use those methods if it didn't. 'it's fun' doesn't make any sense.

The Senate committee was both parties. I heard no dissent in fact both Republicans and Democrats are behind it. Anything that congress can agree on has to have merit.

Seems counter to what I've been hearing in the media.

To me, the CIA does not and never has.

Meh.
 
Funny how the we treat the UN- we used a UN resolution as a pretext to invade Iraq and now that they are criticizing us we demand its dismantlement.

In other words, the U.N. was righteous and useful enough for our government to use them in order to get world-wide approval to go to war, but they aren't worth listening to when our government is called to the mate for committing war crimes in violation of international law.

How interesting...
 
Don't get your bleeding heart panties in a bunch...tell me is AQ, ISIS, or any of the terrorist groups a uniformed military?

I don't need to tell you, you know the answer and it's irrelevant anyway. All who commit crimes need to be prosecuted, there should never be any exceptions.
 
The release of the report was a shameful betrayal of American interests.

I never knew that torture was an "American interest" that needed to be kept under wraps. Where does it say that?
 
I never knew that torture was an "American interest" that needed to be kept under wraps. Where does it say that?

Where does what say that? It was a betrayal of our interests because of what it did to our standing, the fuel it gives our enemies, and the distraction from our enemies activities at such a critical point in our modern history.
 
Where does what say that? It was a betrayal of our interests because of what it did to our standing, the fuel it gives our enemies, and the distraction from our enemies activities at such a critical point in our modern history.

So massacring several hundred thousand innocent people in the fake war on terror, Killer Tuesdays, relentless droning, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and other black sites, etc. did not affect our standing much but the Senate Report was the tipping point then?
 
So massacring several hundred thousand innocent people in the fake war on terror, Killer Tuesdays, relentless droning, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and other black sites, etc. did not affect our standing much but the Senate Report was the tipping point then?

We haven't massacred several hundred thousand people, 'Killer Tuesdays'?, the use of drones is a laudable and desirable method for defeating our enemies and minimizing civilian casualties, Abu Ghraib was horrendous and we brought those responsible to justice with the minimum possible public exposure, I have no moral problem with 'Gitmo' or the black sites only practical ones.

The torture issue had been more or less dead and was only arousing the interest of activists. Now it is re-ignited. It has nothing to do with a 'tipping point'.
 
We haven't massacred several hundred thousand people, 'Killer Tuesdays'?, the use of drones is a laudable and desirable method for defeating our enemies and minimizing civilian casualties, Abu Ghraib was horrendous and we brought those responsible to justice with the minimum possible public exposure, I have no moral problem with 'Gitmo' or the black sites only practical ones.

The torture issue had been more or less dead and was only arousing the interest of activists. Now it is re-ignited. It has nothing to do with a 'tipping point'.

Not to mention how political this report has become. Instead of being a neutral observation of it's effects, Warren and the democrats are just using it to throw mud on the CIA, in an attempt for getting back a them for not cowtowing to whatever it was they were wanting.
 
Fall of the Berlin Wall surprised everyone with it's suddenness. 9/11 is an instance where the lack of inter-agency communication (FBI - CIA) gave each an incomplete picture insufficient to connect the dots. Yes, there were WMDs in IRaq, but they were moved out (perhaps to Syria?), remenants of said WMDs were in found by US forces in Iraq.


If it's not producing useful intel, then why bother? I'm not seeing your logic that they'd continue to use those methods if it didn't. 'it's fun' doesn't make any sense.



Seems counter to what I've been hearing in the media.



Meh.




I think that's the point.

Believe them if you like, i won't not after Iraq and those Weapons of mas destruction that were about to be used against the United States.

They lied then, why would they tell the truth now?
 
When the UN stops promoting human rights abusers to lead its condemnation bodies then they may have a shred of credibility.

When the UN security council decides to remove veto power from its permanent members, a process created by the U.S. and Russia, then the UN will actually be able to go after human rights abusers.
 
We haven't massacred several hundred thousand people

You're right, "we" didn't, that was done by the US government.

'Killer Tuesdays'?

*** Drones and Obama's Tuesday Kill List :*** Information Clearing House: ICH

the use of drones is a laudable and desirable method for defeating our enemies and minimizing civilian casualties,

Well you buy the propaganda anyway. The fact is drones murder people, men, women, children. As well as create new enemies.

Abu Ghraib was horrendous and we brought those responsible to justice with the minimum possible public exposure,

Yeah they went after a few scapegoats and made sure those who authorized these atrocities were left unscathed.

I have no moral problem with 'Gitmo' or the black sites only practical ones.

I can tell morality is not one of your assets.

The torture issue had been more or less dead and was only arousing the interest of activists.

It's never dead to those of us who have certain standards of morality, especially when no one is prosecuted for these crimes against humanity. But I see where you're coming from.

It has nothing to do with a 'tipping point'.

Exactly.
 
Back
Top Bottom