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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    On February 1st, 2002, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, after a short speech, stepped behind the kneeling Daniel Pearl and, as he would later put it "decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan." and then posed for pictures holding Pearl's head. For those who may doubt his action he added "For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head."

    When he was captured by American forces they poured water up his nose until he cried.

    Clearly we are no better than Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
    That seems to be the default position for those that continually like to find themselves on the stupid side of every argument.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Your argument is 'they do it too'. How hollow.

    I'm truly ashamed we have people like you in the US.




    Dang 3G. If you were any more full of yourself, you'd explode and the Hazmat team would be tied up for a week trying to clean up the mess.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Oh that's not my argument at all.....here is my argument. You have a terrorist he has info......you can save many lives. Now you can refuse to torture the terrorist and let many people die. Or you can torture the terrorist and save their lives. Choice is your. Which do you do?

    Now lets see you demonstrate even with your shame you live with, what your morals are about? Cmon lets hear some more of those lil touchy feelings you got too.
    He'd let Americans die then argue they deserve it.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    If you believe that the person has actionable intelligence....maybe.
    And this is why "CIA waterboarded more than the three people". If you read between the lines on that, as reported, you'll see that in all reality, it was probably only a number of high level terrorists that you could count on one hand. Of course, being able to insinuate that waterboarding was something we systematically used makes it easier to feel outraged than realizing it was just a very few high level bad guys. The worst of the worst and the ones that knew the most.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    So the ends justify the means?
    What? If by "ends" you mean making Khalid Sheikh Mohammed suffer a little? Yes.

    I very simply think that anybody who thinks waterboarding is OK should volunteer to undergo the procedure themselves. It really shouldn't be a problem to line up people to "not be tortured."
    Oh FFS, prison isn't a fun place to be either but I support sending criminals there. Would you argue that anyone who supports sending criminals to prison should be incarcerated?

    I know that waterboarding was so amazingly uncomfortable that is made a proud, defiant Islamic militant murdering mogrel cry like a little bitch. I say hell yeah. Do it again.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    If you believe that the person has actionable intelligence....maybe.

    However, so many of the people we've been holding have been in Guantanamo for almost 15 years. I doubt very many of them are involved with terrorist leaders in planning attacks at this point.
    Mornin 88 How does that change anything with them being players on the battlefield. Also just why are they still alive?


    Should we mention about the issue of other countries and their very own refusing to take them back?

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    On February 1st, 2002, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, after a short speech, stepped behind the kneeling Daniel Pearl and, as he put put it "decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan." and then posed for pictures holding Pearl's head. For those who may doubt his action he added "For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head."

    When he was captured by American forces they poured water up his nose until he cried.

    Clearly we are no better than Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
    Exactly. If you are in a fight for survival, you need to be on par with the opposition, if not exceed beyond their capabilities. Military doctrine is, and should be, always with overwhelming force appropriate, so as to avoid another Viet Nam.

    Now I grant you that CIA interrogations aren't military, they are intelligence gathering, but it would seem to be reasonable to adopt a similar stance.

    Some are claiming that such enhanced interrogation methods don't provide useful intel. Many of whom make this claim don't seem to be related to intelligence services, so on what basis are they making these claims? DO they have any solid foundation to make these claims? How about we refer to the people who actually would be in the position to know if these methods produce useful intelligence?

    First, its claim that the CIA’s interrogation program was ineffective in producing intelligence that helped us disrupt, capture, or kill terrorists is just not accurate. The program was invaluable in three critical ways:


    • It led to the capture of senior al Qaeda operatives, thereby removing them from the battlefield.
    • It led to the disruption of terrorist plots and prevented mass casualty attacks, saving American and Allied lives.
    • It added enormously to what we knew about al Qaeda as an organization and therefore informed our approaches on how best to attack, thwart and degrade it.


    A powerful example of the interrogation program’s importance is the information obtained from Abu Zubaydah, a senior al Qaeda operative, and from Khalid Sheikh Muhammed, known as KSM, the 9/11 mastermind. We are convinced that both would not have talked absent the interrogation program.
    Information provided by Zubaydah through the interrogation program led to the capture in 2002 of KSM associate and post-9/11 plotter Ramzi Bin al-Shibh. Information from both Zubaydah and al-Shibh led us to KSM. KSM then led us to Riduan Isamuddin, aka Hambali, East Asia’s chief al Qaeda ally and the perpetrator of the 2002 Bali bombing in Indonesia—in which more than 200 people perished.

    The removal of these senior al Qaeda operatives saved thousands of lives because it ended their plotting. KSM, alone, was working on multiple plots when he was captured.

    Here’s an example of how the interrogation program actually worked to disrupt terrorist plotting. Without revealing to KSM that Hambali had been captured, we asked him who might take over in the event that Hambali was no longer around. KSM pointed to Hambali’s brother Rusman Gunawan. We then found Gunawan, and information from him resulted in the takedown of a 17-member Southeast Asian cell that Gunawan had recruited for a “second wave,” 9/11-style attack on the U.S. West Coast, in all likelihood using aircraft again to attack buildings. Had that attack occurred, the nightmare of 9/11 would have been repeated.

    Once they had become compliant due to the interrogation program, both Abu Zubaydah and KSM turned out to be invaluable sources on the al Qaeda organization. We went back to them multiple times to gain insight into the group. More than one quarter of the nearly 1,700 footnotes in the highly regarded 9/11 Commission Report in 2004 and a significant share of the intelligence in the 2007 National Intelligence Estimate on al Qaeda came from detainees in the program, in particular Zubaydah and KSM.
    Ex-CIA Directors: Interrogations Saved Lives - WSJ

    So if the leftists subscribe to the measure of 'the ends justifies the means' in other applications, such as ObamaCare, then it would be equally applicable in this instance, wouldn't it?
    the Fix-is-in Bureau of Investigation

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Sorry Bob, different situation all together.
    Yeah of course, God Bless America, waterboarding is not waterboarding if Americans do it. The American exceptionalism mentality. There is no provision in any international treaty that prohibits torture and other crimes against humanity that exempts the US government.

    In any case, it wasn't just waterboarding that was part of the torture regimen, some died through these tortures. ALL who were tortured were not charged with any crimes before they were tortured. Most were released without ever being charged with anything. Yeah, different situation, same war crimes/crimes against humanity.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Mornin 88 How does that change anything with them being players on the battlefield. Also just why are they still alive?


    Should we mention about the issue of other countries and their very own refusing to take them back?
    I don't think that 13 years later they're still "players."

    I admit that we're in a very tough situation as far as getting rid of them, but I don't think that justifies torture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Exactly. If you are in a fight for survival, you need to be on par with the opposition, if not exceed beyond their capabilities. Military doctrine is, and should be, always with overwhelming force appropriate, so as to avoid another Viet Nam.

    Now I grant you that CIA interrogations aren't military, they are intelligence gathering, but it would seem to be reasonable to adopt a similar stance.

    Some are claiming that such enhanced interrogation methods don't provide useful intel. Many of whom make this claim don't seem to be related to intelligence services, so on what basis are they making these claims? DO they have any solid foundation to make these claims? How about we refer to the people who actually would be in the position to know if these methods produce useful intelligence?

    Ex-CIA Directors: Interrogations Saved Lives - WSJ

    So if the leftists subscribe to the measure of 'the ends justifies the means' in other applications, such as ObamaCare, then it would be equally applicable in this instance, wouldn't it?
    Well, no. I do not want to come anywhere close to equaling or exceeding the savagery of al Qaeda and ISIS. I do not want to overrun their camps and decapitate their children and rape their women. But I am not above pouring water up their nose and make THEM believe we might be ending their life. In other words, I have no problem making these monsters cry.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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