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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

  1. #571
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Our military is subjected to waterboarding as part of survival training so are you telling me that our military is using illegal techniques on our own troops? How about you answering the question what would you condone to save your wife, kids, or parents?
    Waterboarding is torture, yes. We've executed people for doing it to our troops, but apparently you think it's ok if we do it to ourselves? That's interesting. How many months do our troops get waterboarded for? Do they also have food shoved up their ass?

    And if it were to save my own family? I'd nuke New York City. That's why due process doesn't work that way. That's why justice doesn't work that way.

    I mean seriously. Look at what you're saying here. "Oh, it can't be wrong because America does it."

    Do you think that about everything the Obama administration does?
    Last edited by Deuce; 01-01-15 at 10:09 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  2. #572
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    No, but he is a very relevant witness, having conducted a military investigation into torture.

    Any dignified and professional AG would be interested in such information. To declare flat out that "there is nothing to investigate", or however Holder phrased it, amounts to gross misfeasance or malfeasance in office.

    Taguba apparently has a well-developed conscience. He is able to tell the difference between right and wrong. He knows that torture is an international war crime, and he knows that his government once upon a time prosecuted torture.

    Some humans do not have a functioning moral compass, and Holder is one of them.

    Well I agree Holders lacking a moral compass.

    But not because he refuses to comply with the demands of a bunch of Bush haters.

    The standards of moral decency do not hinge on the obsessions of disgruntled partisan hacks.

    Its ironic that those who still repeat the years old false narratives about supposed lies are the ones who claim to hold some moral high ground here.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Waterboarding is torture, yes.
    Waterboarding can be torture.
    As conducted by the CIA at the time, it was not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    We've executed people for doing it to our troops,

    We did not execute anybody for waterboarding.
    If you choose to reply, pay attention to the word which is underlined, and also keep in mind that the waterboarding conducted by the U.S. is not and was not the same as the water torture the Japanese conducted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Do they also have food shoved up their ass?
    Quit whining about a medical procedure.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    That is your claim. Prove it
    Find any record of anyone even looking at it.



    Even though you were given a link to the facts of the case, you still can't help being wrong.
    I wonder why you choose to let your agenda blind you to reality.
    Because I know a little more about cause and effect. I don't limit my rerading:

    Dilawar and Habibullah died, in part, because they were hooded and shackled to the wire mesh ceiling of their holding cells for hours at a time so that the blood flowed to their legs, turning peroneal strikes into death blows. But the illegal practice of overhead shackling was not the work of bad apples. It was routine at Bagram. It was policy.

    Killing Wussification - The Atlantic

    And if you have been paying attention, after this came to light, they started limiting these stress positions.






    Wrong. The fact that there were no charges does matter.
    No, not one bit. Something isn't only wrong when someone is charged. It's wrong because it is wrong.

    Wrong again.
    That is how it works. Your claim is on you to support.

    All you are doing is deflecting from supporting your assertion. Obviously because you can't.


    Unwillingness you say? What a pathetic argument.
    No, much wrong happens that reasons other than guilt or innocence leads to charges or no charges. The question has nothing to do with whether charges have or have not been filed.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    So you have shown that you pick and choose what you want to believe. Tell us all why John Brennan claimed that enhanced interrogation saved American lives? Are you telling me that the Obama Administration is lying too?
    He has to. It doesn't want any more harm to the organization than there is. it's against his interests to state the truth publicly.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    It was all probably torture and it was probably illegal under international law and possibly under US law. What should we do? Charge no one. Bury the issue completely. That it was illegal does not mean it wasn't beneficial, and even if it was not beneficial it is utterly harmful to raise the issue from the dead and shine a bright light on it in the midst of our current struggles. This is a detail that should be seconded to our objectives.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, it's an unwillingness to prosecute.
    That is your claim.
    Prove it
    Find any record of anyone even looking at it.

    What a lame reply. And again you have failed to support your argument. Obviously because you can't.
    You should really stop making claims you can't back up.

    The interrogation methods were deemed legal, which makes them legal.
    Those who ordered them and those who carried them out can not be prosecuted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Because I know a little more about cause and effect. I don't limit my rerading:

    Dilawar and Habibullah died, in part, because they were hooded and shackled to the wire mesh ceiling of their holding cells for hours at a time so that the blood flowed to their legs, turning peroneal strikes into death blows. But the illegal practice of overhead shackling was not the work of bad apples. It was routine at Bagram. It was policy.

    Killing Wussification - The Atlantic

    And if you have been paying attention, after this came to light, they started limiting these stress positions.
    You do not limit your rerading, huh? iLOL
    What you shouldn't do and have, is limit your understanding of what you read.

    You clearly do not know anything more about cause and effect.
    And you certainly have just shown you do not know the difference between "quoted" information the source cited from a Death Certificate (which I provided), and a non-quoted, unsupported, non-official, non-medical opinion given by a reporter (that you provided).

    Death Certificate trumps unsupported reporters opinion.
    The Death Certificate listed the cause(s) and contributing factors of death.
    No "stress position" was quoted as being a cause or contributing factor.

    Funny that you do not know that.
    Funny how you think what a reporter's opinion is relevant at all.
    No wonder you just do not understand why you are wrong, you just know so much which isn't true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Wrong. The fact that there were no charges does matter.
    No, not one bit.
    Wrong again, as usual.
    It most definitely does matter. Especially as the "why" there were no charges is what we are discussing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Something isn't only wrong when someone is charged. It's wrong because it is wrong.

    We are talking about legality.
    Stop trying to conflate the issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, much wrong happens that reasons other than guilt or innocence leads to charges or no charges. The question has nothing to do with whether charges have or have not been filed.
    A bunch of nonsense. Your claim is on you to support, and you have failed repeatedly to do so.
    And you can't, simply because what you asserted isn't true.

    What you do not seem to understand is the whole premiss under which the CIA was working.
    The interrogation methods were authorized as legal, and therefore the actions from ordering, to carrying them out were legal.
    Period. That is how it works.

    No later body can come and make those actions illegal, because they were legal at the time. Period.
    There was no unwillingness as you claim as no laws were broken at the time to prosecute.

    You can argue until you are blue in the face that the legal justification was unsound, ill advised or whatever you want. That is nothing more than opinion and will not change the fact that is, and was, the legal position they were operating under.
    And that is, and will continue to be how our System operates.
    Last edited by Excon; 01-02-15 at 07:58 AM.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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  8. #578
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    What a lame reply. And again you have failed to support your argument. Obviously because you can't.
    You should really stop making claims you can't back up.

    The interrogation methods were deemed legal, which makes them legal.
    Those who ordered them and those who carried them out can not be prosecuted.


    You do not limit your rerading, huh? iLOL
    What you shouldn't do and have, is limit your understanding of what you read.

    You clearly do not know anything more about cause and effect.
    And you certainly have just shown you do not know the difference between "quoted" information the source cited from a Death Certificate (which I provided), and a non-quoted, unsupported, non-official, non-medical opinion given by a reporter (that you provided).

    Death Certificate trumps unsupported reporters opinion.
    The Death Certificate listed the cause(s) and contributing factors of death.
    No "stress position" was quoted as being a cause or contributing factor.

    Funny that you do not know that.
    Funny how you think what a reporter's opinion is relevant at all.
    No wonder you just do not understand why you are wrong, you just know so much which isn't true.


    Wrong again, as usual.
    It most definitely does matter. Especially as the "why" there were no charges is what we are discussing.




    We are talking about legality.
    Stop trying to conflate the issue.


    A bunch of nonsense. Your claim is on you to support, and you have failed repeatedly to do so.
    And you can't, simply because what you asserted isn't true.

    What you do not seem to understand is the whole premiss under which the CIA was working.
    The interrogation methods were authorized as legal, and therefore the actions from ordering, to carrying them out were legal.
    Period. That is how it works.

    No later body can come and make those actions illegal, because they were legal at the time. Period.
    There was no unwillingness as you claim as no laws were broken at the time to prosecute.

    You can argue until you are blue in the face that the legal justification was unsound, ill advised or whatever you want. That is nothing more than opinion and will not change the fact that is, and was, the legal position they were operating under.
    And that is, and will continue to be how our System operates.
    One shouldn't wiggle and squirm when they've got themselves in a bed of quicksand. It makes them
    sink deeper more quickly. If you'll send me your address, I'll send you a long breathing tube, very
    long. Torture is illegal under the Geneva Conventions. The person who ordered the torture should
    be prosecuted and that would be the "self proclaimed" decider, GW Bush(the First Torturor). It is
    a simple chain of responsibility, and he should also have to pay reparations to Garner and Englund,
    two famous scumbags who were just doing their jobs. The law writing to allegedly make it legal was a
    conspiracy by any definition of the word. Seems like a RICO Act violation, don't ya' know?

  9. #579
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Well I agree Holders lacking a moral compass.

    But not because he refuses to comply with the demands of a bunch of Bush haters.

    The standards of moral decency do not hinge on the obsessions of disgruntled partisan hacks.

    Its ironic that those who still repeat the years old false narratives about supposed lies are the ones who claim to hold some moral high ground here.
    Well I never suggested the disgruntled partisan hacks scenario you mention, no.

    He lacks a moral compass and exhibits malfeasance in office because he is sworn to uphold the law. He is obligated to prosecute those who break the law.

    As Taguba and many others have described, and as POTUS has told the country, "we tortured some folks". Even before Obama was elected, anybody paying attention already knew "we were torturing some folks." Not rocket science.

    So for those of us who do happen to be guided by a moral compass, what was done by government agents was wrong, and it was illegal.

    So in my view, partisan politics has nothing to do with it. Torture is illegal, we did it, we know who did it and who ordered it, and the AG has an obligation to enforce the law. He has refused to, and that is complicity on his part for the torture scheme, AND it is dereliction of duty on his part.

  10. #580
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    One shouldn't wiggle and squirm when they've got themselves in a bed of quicksand.
    You are speaking from experience I see.
    Since you are, I would suggest you stop getting mired here.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Torture is illegal under the Geneva Conventions.
    And again.
    What the CIA did was designed not to run afoul of the law, and was found legally permissible.
    Do you really not understand that?
    I care not if you or others do not like that. The interrogation methods, as officially conducted were not torture.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    The person who ordered the torture should be prosecuted and that would be the "self proclaimed" decider, GW Bush(the First Torturor).
    As the interrogation methods were designed not to run afoul of the law and a memo was issued saying they didn't. He did nothing illegal to be prosecuted for.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    The law writing to allegedly make it legal was a conspiracy by any definition of the word. Seems like a RICO Act violation, don't ya' know?

    No it wasn't. It was all legal.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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