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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

  1. #491
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Ok, as stated, show me the law that the CIA violated? Thanks in advance
    The prohibition against torture is firmly embedded in customary international law, international treaties signed by the United States, and in U.S. law. As the U.S. Department of State has noted, the "United States has long been a vigorous supporter of the international fight against torture…Every unit of government at every level within the United States is committed, by law as well as by policy, to the protection of the individual's life, liberty and physical integrity" [U.S. Department of State, "Initial Report of the United States of America to the UN Committee Against Torture." Oct 15, 1999. (15 Nov. 2001)].

    The Legal Prohibition Against Torture | Human Rights Watch

    18 U.S. Code Chapter 113C - TORTURE

    (a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
    (b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
    (1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
    (2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.


    18 U.S. Code Chapter 113C - TORTURE | LII / Legal Information Institute

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, they did not commit a crime. If you have any evidence that they did you should give this information to Holder and the DOJ. Relying on your own feelings rather than the law is not how the system works, nor should it work that way.
    They tortured. What they did is by definition torture. You read that in the links above. It's not feelings. It's measuring actions against codified law.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture


    No.

    (In perfect imitation of the previously used caveman vernacular.)
    "There" mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There mistake. An unwillingness to prosecute is not equal to it not being illegal.
    Or in alternative reply; Yes, there be your mistake.

    Regardless. That is not what they said.
    They displayed no unwillingness.

    Your fault for not understanding that.

    You really should have paid attention to the following post which came prior to yours before making such an absurd reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Here is a very thorough, detailed memorandum on this subject prepared for the Attorney General at the time by the Office of Legal Counsel. There are at least 125,000 pages of documents on different aspects of the war on jihadists in the archive this one comes from. Let me know if the link doesn't work.

    http://dspace.wrlc.org/doc/bitstream...001display.pdf
    Follow the link and read it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    They tortured. What they did is by definition torture. You read that in the links above. It's not feelings. It's measuring actions against codified law.
    No it isn't. What you seem to have forgotten to provided was the following information.
    The devil they say is in the details.


    Emphasis mine.
    18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions

    As used in this chapter—
    (1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
    (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
    (3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

    18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute

    No they did not violate the law.
    The above may help you in your understanding of the previously provided memo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    They tortured. What they did is by definition torture. You read that in the links above. It's not feelings. It's measuring actions against codified law.
    Wrong.
    What they did did not rise to the level of torture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Meaningless. They did not face a court. This was just someone trying to excuse the law breaking.
    No. Your reply is meaningless. They did not have to face a court as nothing was established as being illegal.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

  4. #494
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The prohibition against torture is firmly embedded in customary international law, international treaties signed by the United States, and in U.S. law. As the U.S. Department of State has noted, the "United States has long been a vigorous supporter of the international fight against torture…Every unit of government at every level within the United States is committed, by law as well as by policy, to the protection of the individual's life, liberty and physical integrity" [U.S. Department of State, "Initial Report of the United States of America to the UN Committee Against Torture." Oct 15, 1999. (15 Nov. 2001)].

    The Legal Prohibition Against Torture | Human Rights Watch

    18 U.S. Code Chapter 113C - TORTURE

    (a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
    (b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
    (1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
    (2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.


    18 U.S. Code Chapter 113C - TORTURE | LII / Legal Information Institute
    My thanks to Excon. My poinr exactly

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I guess I just don't get it and never will. What is your outrage over waterboarding terrorists when our troops are waterboarded as part of survival training. The Waterboarding according to John Brennan who I am not a fan of by the way saved lives, American lives. Lives are more important to this country than the animals you seem so concerned about. Suggest you google pictures if you truly want to see torture. Too bad far too many people think with their hearts and not their brain. Being naïve seems to be a trait of liberals.
    I do appreciate your honest reply, even though we fundamentally disagree.

    Funny thing is my conservative friends call me liberal, even as my liberal friends call me conservative. What is a man to do?

    Outrage is not really the correct word. Objection, complaint would be better. As perhaps most of my Christian and Catholic friends defend the torture, disappointment or disgust might be better words to describe the situation. Having served in the US Army, I have a romantic (but obviously unrealistic) view that the country I served was better than the average country. I had imagined that we obeyed laws that we had signed on to, and I had this absurd notion that my country respected human dignity, no matter what the other barbarians in the world might do.

    Turns out, we are as barbaric as they, but we are more deluded than they. We teach our kids all those romantic notions of the rights of man and the rule of law, but of course that is just lip service. By our actions we are judged, and by our actions we are every bit the barbarians that others are.

    Does that help?

    That so many individuals rationalize their support for barbaric actions is simply another part of the human condition. Whether that is funny or pathetic is yet to be determined.

  6. #496
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    No.

    (In perfect imitation of the previously used caveman vernacular.)
    "There" mistake.

    Or in alternative reply; Yes, there be your mistake.

    Regardless. That is not what they said.
    They displayed no unwillingness.

    Your fault for not understanding that.

    You really should have paid attention to the following post which came prior to yours before making such an absurd reply.
    Follow the link and read it.



    No it isn't. What you seem to have forgotten to provided was the following information.
    The devil they say is in the details.


    Emphasis mine.
    18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions

    As used in this chapter—
    (1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
    (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
    (3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

    18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute

    No they did not violate the law.
    The above may help you in your understanding of the previously provided memo.



    Wrong.
    What they did did not rise to the level of torture.



    No. Your reply is meaningless. They did not have to face a court as nothing was established as being illegal.
    Waterboarding is not "incidental to lawful sanctions."
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  7. #497
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Waterboarding is not "incidental to lawful sanctions."
    Then have our troops sue their govt. for what you call illegal actions.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    No.

    (In perfect imitation of the previously used caveman vernacular.)
    "There" mistake.

    Or in alternative reply; Yes, there be your mistake.

    Regardless. That is not what they said.
    They displayed no unwillingness.

    Your fault for not understanding that.

    You really should have paid attention to the following post which came prior to yours before making such an absurd reply.

    Follow the link and read it.



    No it isn't. What you seem to have forgotten to provided was the following information.
    The devil they say is in the details.


    Emphasis mine.
    18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions

    As used in this chapter—
    (1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
    (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
    (3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

    18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute

    No they did not violate the law.
    The above may help you in your understanding of the previously provided memo.



    Wrong.
    What they did did not rise to the level of torture.



    No. Your reply is meaningless. They did not have to face a court as nothing was established as being illegal.
    The WH legal consul opinion on the matter is not a rebuttal to what I said. It was a legal opinion given to help the president make a poor decision. It is not a prosecutor's opinion, or a court ruling. So, I repeat, their unwillingness to prosecute isn't evidence he didn't break the law.

    And yes they did violate the law. As discussed earlier, waterboarding and stress positions have longer lasting harm than physical abuse. So it meets the very parts you underlined. what was done to these people was worse than beatings. It will be with them longer. And remember, one who died, the innocent taxi driver, died in a stress position, from being in that position.

    So again, you fail to rebut what I put forward.

    And no, the decision was made not to seek prosecution. No prosecutor made any determination. It was a political decision not to pursue it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #499
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    My thanks to Excon. My poinr exactly
    Note above that I pointed out his errors.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The WH legal consul opinion on the matter is not a rebuttal to what I said. It was a legal opinion given to help the president make a poor decision. It is not a prosecutor's opinion, or a court ruling. So, I repeat, their unwillingness to prosecute isn't evidence he didn't break the law.

    And yes they did violate the law. As discussed earlier, waterboarding and stress positions have longer lasting harm than physical abuse. So it meets the very parts you underlined. what was done to these people was worse than beatings. It will be with them longer. And remember, one who died, the innocent taxi driver, died in a stress position, from being in that position.

    So again, you fail to rebut what I put forward.

    And no, the decision was made not to seek prosecution. No prosecutor made any determination. It was a political decision not to pursue it.
    Have you ever had to make a decision that required legal advice? Bush got the legal advice and took action. You don't like the action and in this country you are innocent until proven guilty not vice versa. You can indict a ham sandwich or bring any kind of suit you want. The outcome however is what matters and Democrats let the issue slide something you refuse to accept. You can believe what you want until hell freezes over but that is meaningless.

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