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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

  1. #431
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Boo, I agree with you, I wouldn't do a damn thing to get information out of a terrorists who had information about a plan to harm your family. Do you realize how stupid that is? It is very easy for people like you who have never had a family member threatened or probably never served to have the opinions you do but you are far from an expert and far from anyone with credibility when it comes to getting information from animals who aren't part of the Geneva Convention or any other civilized leadership position.
    That post shows a lot of ignorance, I never argued do nothing, I argue do something that works. All the literature on torture says it doesn't work. And we have verifiable evidence of intel we got and used that was false, and that is undisputed. You can't offer anything as undisputed and verifiable.

    And torturing innocent people is also not going to help anyone's family. In fact, all of this likely puts them more at risk. It is not human nature to ignore these wrongs. Some will join the fight against us just to avenge those wrongs. And I speak of people who would not have done so without it.

    This type of excuse you make above for evil doesn't hold up. It doesn't excuse torture. As for expertise, there are plenty who side with me.

    Here are a couple:

    Moreover, Zimbardo told LiveScience that torture is not an effective way to gather intelligence. Compared with police settings, in which detectives build social rapport and often get confessions without physical force, secret interrogation squads can alienate prisoners and elicit unreliable information, he said.

    (For example, a Libyan detainee linked to al-Qaida falsely revealed under torture that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq — a key reason for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Allen said.)

    Study: U.S. Torture Techniques Unethical, Ineffective

    As early as the third century A.D., the great Roman Jurist Ulpian noted that information obtained through torture was not to be trusted because some people are “so susceptible to pain that they will tell any lie rather than suffer it” (Peters, 1996). This warning about the unreliability of information extracted through the use of torture has echoed across the centuries. As one CIA operative who participated in torture during the Vietnam War put it, “We had people who were willing to confess to anything if we would just stop torturing them” (Andersen, 2004, p. 3). Indeed, the Army Field Manual explains that strategically useful information is best obtained from prisoners who are treated humanely, and that information obtained through torture has produced faulty intelligence (Leahy, 2005).

    (snip)

    Although torture does not produce reliable information, it may persist because it satisfies psychological needs in times of stress. Specifically, it counters a sense of desperation, reassures interrogators that they are in control, and bestows a feeling of empowerment, at least in the enclosed world of the interrogation room (Carlsmith & Sood, 2009). As one scholar put it, “Even though torture is not, on balance, effective or rational, it persists through its deep psychological appeal, to the powerful and the powerless alike, in times of crisis” (McCoy, 2006, p. 207).

    http://www.cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/cos...errogation.pdf

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #432
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Where is your evidence for that? I don't believe anyone offered credible testimony to anyone in Congress that the water technique approved for use by U.S. interrogators differed significantly from the technique used on U.S. servicemen in SERE training. The technique approved for interrogators was described in detail in government documents, and I have read them. It strictly limited how long a single administration could last--about 15-20 seconds--how many there could be in any one session, how many sessions there could be in any one day, etc. The subject's feet had to be kept higher than his head to make drowning impossible, and a doctor had to be in the room throughout the procedure.
    I did not know there were people so unaware. I wouldn't leap into a discussion if I knew nothing about it. However, this will explain a few of the differences rather well:

    SERE Training and Torture



    What of it? Where is your evidence that "waterboarding" as done by Japanese war criminals was anything like the technique approved for use by U.S. interrogators? Next you'll be trying to tell us the bird bath in someone's garden is just like Lake Michigan, because they are both "bodies of water."
    Drowning is drowning. I'm sorry, but you can't pretend there is a significant difference.


    The report you love so well is a collection of lies designed to slander this country.
    TGhis comment is just nonsense and not worthy from anyone in a debate.



    That is exactly why all of the enhanced interrogation techniques approved for use by U.S. interrogators were designed not to violate either section 2340 of the U.S. Code or any other applicable U.S. laws against torture. And after painstaking, detailed legal analysis, the Justice Dept.'s Office of Legal Counsel determined that they did not violate any of those laws.
    And they were wrong. Very wrong.


    You can prattle that slander against the United States until you are blue in the face, and it will not make it one bit less false.
    Nice effort to divert, but I'm arguing against torture so real American's aren't harmed in the future due to this illegal and immoral effort by one administration.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I wouldn't leap into a discussion if I knew nothing about it.
    The fact you've chosen to post here says otherwise.

    I don't give a damn what Alex Knapp, whatever sort of leftist dolt he is, thinks about this subject.


    TGhis comment is just nonsense and not worthy from anyone in a debate.
    I stand behind every word of my comment, and whether you consider it "worthy" does not interest me.

    Nice effort to divert, but I'm arguing against torture so real American's aren't harmed in the future due to this illegal and immoral effort by one administration.
    I doubt that.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I don't give a damn what Alex Knapp, whatever sort of leftist dolt he is, thinks about this subject.
    I never thought you did care about facts.


    I stand behind every word of my comment, and whether you consider it "worthy" does not interest me.
    That's how ignorance persists.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Nobody, other than you, denies the CIA designed the techniques.
    Stop telling untruths and making false arguments.
    No one denied any such thing.
    But you sure have made false claims and absurd connections.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    and it doesn't even look like you're attempting to address my actual posts.
    Said the person being untruthful.
    So typical for you.
    Your post was fully shredded, all they way down to your false presentation of source material.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    because I am done conversing with you.
    You are done because you have been caught being dishonest. Not only in presentation, but in what you claim of others.
    Which is the norm for you.

    Good riddance to your absurdly illogical and dishonest argumentation.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    With regards to Abu Ghraib, Amnesty Internation published the findings in a report and the Associated Press broke the news story.
    Amnesty International?
    iLOL

    That is hilarious.
    Last edited by Excon; 12-28-14 at 07:01 AM.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Such is not the case here. Waterboarding, stress positions, and sleep deprivation are all torture
    The Justice Department did not say that in regards to the EIT methods.
    And as such, there will be no prosecutions.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Right, enhanced interrogation and rape are equivalent. Wow.
    Torture and rape are not necessarily the same thing, although rape can be a form of torture. The point is that you cannot say that just because there are terrorists who have been tortured who are alive and walking around, that means that they have not had any physical or psychological harm inflicted on them. Please keep track of the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I am sure Khalid Sheikh Mohammed appreciates your support as do the families almost 3000 Americans killed on 9/11.
    I don't support that individual so your claim is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I am sure that Bin Laden however doesn't agree that the enhanced interrogations didn't work.
    So you talk to him? Interesting.

  8. #438
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That post shows a lot of ignorance, I never argued do nothing, I argue do something that works. All the literature on torture says it doesn't work. And we have verifiable evidence of intel we got and used that was false, and that is undisputed. You can't offer anything as undisputed and verifiable.

    And torturing innocent people is also not going to help anyone's family. In fact, all of this likely puts them more at risk. It is not human nature to ignore these wrongs. Some will join the fight against us just to avenge those wrongs. And I speak of people who would not have done so without it.

    This type of excuse you make above for evil doesn't hold up. It doesn't excuse torture. As for expertise, there are plenty who side with me.

    Here are a couple:

    Moreover, Zimbardo told LiveScience that torture is not an effective way to gather intelligence. Compared with police settings, in which detectives build social rapport and often get confessions without physical force, secret interrogation squads can alienate prisoners and elicit unreliable information, he said.

    (For example, a Libyan detainee linked to al-Qaida falsely revealed under torture that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq — a key reason for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Allen said.)

    Study: U.S. Torture Techniques Unethical, Ineffective

    As early as the third century A.D., the great Roman Jurist Ulpian noted that information obtained through torture was not to be trusted because some people are “so susceptible to pain that they will tell any lie rather than suffer it” (Peters, 1996). This warning about the unreliability of information extracted through the use of torture has echoed across the centuries. As one CIA operative who participated in torture during the Vietnam War put it, “We had people who were willing to confess to anything if we would just stop torturing them” (Andersen, 2004, p. 3). Indeed, the Army Field Manual explains that strategically useful information is best obtained from prisoners who are treated humanely, and that information obtained through torture has produced faulty intelligence (Leahy, 2005).

    (snip)

    Although torture does not produce reliable information, it may persist because it satisfies psychological needs in times of stress. Specifically, it counters a sense of desperation, reassures interrogators that they are in control, and bestows a feeling of empowerment, at least in the enclosed world of the interrogation room (Carlsmith & Sood, 2009). As one scholar put it, “Even though torture is not, on balance, effective or rational, it persists through its deep psychological appeal, to the powerful and the powerless alike, in times of crisis” (McCoy, 2006, p. 207).

    http://www.cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/cos...errogation.pdf
    Look, suggest you get this post published in the fiction category. You post opinions as fact and ignore that this report didn't interview key leaders who authorized enhanced interrogation so you have no idea what you are talking about or if in this case enhanced interrogation worked. You call waterboarding torture and I disagree as would Bin Laden today as that is how he was captured and killed.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Torture and rape are not necessarily the same thing, although rape can be a form of torture. The point is that you cannot say that just because there are terrorists who have been tortured who are alive and walking around, that means that they have not had any physical or psychological harm inflicted on them. Please keep track of the conversation.



    I don't support that individual so your claim is absurd.



    So you talk to him? Interesting.
    Where did the information come from that led to the capture and killing of Bin Laden? Why did John Brennan disagree with the report and claim that good intelligence was gained by enhanced interrogation that saved American lives?

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Where did the information come from that led to the capture and killing of Bin Laden? Why did John Brennan disagree with the report and claim that good intelligence was gained by enhanced interrogation that saved American lives?
    Senate report: Torture didn't lead to bin Laden

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