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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    MildSteel;1064132445]You have totally missed the point. I have said nothing about the innocent or guilt of persons who were tortured for the sake of getting information on terrorism. What I asked you was a hypothetical question meant to illustrate that there should be a limit on what you are willing to do to save a loved one, rather than being willing to do anything to save a loved one. Again, would you kill one of my loved ones, to save one of yours, even though mine have done nothing to you?
    You do what all liberals do to divert from the fact that these weren't innocents but most high level leadership captured on the battlefield. This is a war and in war you do whatever is necessary to save American lives. I am not a terrorists, I am not at war with you or your kids therefore I would do no harm to them. If one of your kids kidnapped one of mine, threatened to kill them, and you knew where they were, you bet I would authorize whatever techniques available to find them and prosecute you


    No it is more than my opinion. It is also the opinion of psychologists who have studied the matter and concluded that information obtained by torture has the tendency to be unreliable.
    You call what happened torture, I don't agree and since no high level leadership was interrogated your psychologists opinions are simply their own


    Yep and they, like everyone else, will have a tendency to say anything, even if it's not true, to make someone stop torturing them.
    You keep buying the liberal spin, I don't. Obama's head of the CIA disagreed with the report and since no high level management was interviewed I don't put much faith in your opinion or others.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You do what all liberals do to divert from the fact that these weren't innocents but most high level leadership captured on the battlefield. This is a war and in war you do whatever is necessary to save American lives. I am not a terrorists, I am not at war with you or your kids therefore I would do no harm to them.
    Since you have said you would do anything to save your loved one, let me ask it like this, let's suppose a terrorist wanted one of my children killed and kidnapped one of your children and threatened to kill your child if you didn't kill one of mine. Would you kill my child to save your child?

    For me the answer is no, I would not kill one of your children to save one of my own in those circumstances because there are limits on what I am willing to do to save a loved one. I would not do anything to save them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You call what happened torture, I don't agree and since no high level leadership was interrogated your psychologists opinions are simply their own
    It was torture IF we define torture as the act of inflicting physical or psychological harm on a person under one's control. Now you may not agree with that definition and I am not going to split hairs over it. What I am saying is that under that definition of torture, people were indeed tortured. It doesn't matter who was asked, it matters what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You keep buying the liberal spin, I don't.
    That is not liberal spin, that is not only the opinion of people who have observed the matter, it is also common sense. Again, that is not to say that information obtained from such methods is always unreliable, it is to say that it has a tendency to be unreliable.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    =MildSteel;1064132480]Since you have said you would do anything to save your loved one, let me ask it like this, let's suppose a terrorist wanted one of my children killed and kidnapped one of your children and threatened to kill your child if you didn't kill one of mine. Would you kill my child to save your child?
    Not playing your silly supposed game as this has nothing to do with the thread topic

    For me the answer is no, I would not kill one of your children to save one of my own in those circumstances because there are limits on what I am willing to do to save a loved one. I would not do anything to save them.
    Show me where our military violated any laws in their enhanced interrogation techniques? You listen to far too many leftwing sources so rather than do that think for a change


    It was torture IF we define torture as the act of inflicting physical or psychological harm on a person under one's control. Now you may not agree with that definition and I am not going to split hairs over it. What I am saying is that under that definition of torture, people were indeed tortured. It doesn't matter who was asked, it matters what happened.
    What physical or psychological harm was done to those who had our enhanced interrogation? I a sick of this topic. serve in the military and find out just how great our people are compared to the rest of the world. I have no sympathy for any terrorist and they deserve much worse than they got.
    That is not liberal spin, that is not only the opinion of people who have observed the matter, it is also common sense. Again, that is not to say that information obtained from such methods is always unreliable, it is to say that it has a tendency to be unreliable.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Not playing your silly supposed game as this has nothing to do with the thread topic
    I'm not playing a silly game. I asked you a serious question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Show me where our military violated any laws in their enhanced interrogation techniques?
    Show me how the so called "enhanced interrogation techniques" did not inflict psychological or physical harm on the subjects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What physical or psychological harm was done to those who had our enhanced interrogation?
    Do you seriously want to put forward the notion that you can put a person in an enclosed box just big enough for them to fit in for days, in which they have to urine and pass stool on themselves and have little or no sensory input, and not inflict psychological harm on the subject? Please.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Documented cases of rape occurred at Abu Ghraib as well as pouring acid on prisoners and dragging them across the floor by ropes tied to their genitals. Dick Cheney argued that none of that was torture when he was in office. The recent CIA report concluded that at least one person died in custody at Gitmo and large tubes were routinely rammed up the rectums of prisoners so liquified food could be pumped into their body. They also concluded that innocent people and even US citizens, were detained and tortured, and denied legal council and trial for years.
    Some of these things I would have to consider the source, such as the claim that US citizens were not only detained but tortured in the manner you speak of. As to the Abu Ghraib episodes, people were prosecuted for these acts as far as I know. So, lumping them together as some sort of sanctioned treatment is rather dishonest if you ask me. I think that some reporting these supposed acts do so for the shocking nature of them, and speak of possible isolated incidents by bad actors as if they are/were daily occurrences. All this supposed documentation of the nature that you outline depends largely on the source of the allegation.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I'm not playing a silly game. I asked you a serious question.



    Show me how the so called "enhanced interrogation techniques" did not inflict psychological or physical harm on the subjects.



    Do you seriously want to put forward the notion that you can put a person in an enclosed box just big enough for them to fit in for days, in which they have to urine and pass stool on themselves and have little or no sensory input, and not inflict psychological harm on the subject? Please.
    Just like you cannot show that they did inflict harm the fact that these terrorists are still alive and wandering around GITMO says they aren't in too bad of shape. Love liberals like you who have no idea what it means to watch your friends beheaded or blown up for just being in the wrong place at the right time. I trust our military to keep my family safe and to do whatever is necessary to do so. Couldn't care less about your feelings of sympathy for these animals.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Just like you cannot show that they did inflict harm the fact that these terrorists are still alive and wandering around GITMO says they aren't in too bad of shape.
    There are many women who have been raped who are alive and wandering around. That does not mean that there was no psychological or physical harm done to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Love liberals like you who have no idea what it means to watch your friends beheaded or blown up for just being in the wrong place at the right time. I trust our military to keep my family safe and to do whatever is necessary to do so. Couldn't care less about your feelings of sympathy for these animals.
    This isn't about being a "love liberal" or being sympathetic to those who have been tortured. It's about realizing that torture produces information that has a tendency to be unreliable.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    There are many women who have been raped who are alive and wandering around. That does not mean that there was no psychological or physical harm done to them.



    This isn't about being a "love liberal" or being sympathetic to those who have been tortured. It's about realizing that torture produces information that has a tendency to be unreliable.
    Right, enhanced interrogation and rape are equivalent. Wow. I am sure Khalid Sheikh Mohammed appreciates your support as do the families almost 3000 Americans killed on 9/11. I am sure that Bin Laden however doesn't agree that the enhanced interrogations didn't work.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    US citizens can and have been detained, held indefinitely without charges or a trial, and denied access to a lawyer.

    American detainees at Guantanamo Bay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    José Padilla (prisoner) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A US Citizen Tortured Abroad by the FBI? -- 5 Cases of Extreme US Govt. Inhumanity in the Obama Era | Alternet

    Judge Finds Courts Cannot Protect US Citizens Tortured by US Government Officials Abroad | The Dissenter

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/op...ture.html?_r=0




    As for the few bad apples argument...

    With regards to Abu Ghraib, Amnesty Internation published the findings in a report and the Associated Press broke the news story.

    "The administration of George W. Bush attempted to portray the abuses as isolated incidents, not indicative of general U.S. policy. This was contradicted by humanitarian organizations such as the Red Cross, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch. After multiple investigations, they stated that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were NOT isolated but were part of a wider pattern of torture and brutal treatment at American overseas detention centers, including those in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay. There was evidence that authorization for the torture had come from high up in the military hierarchy, with allegations being made that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had authorized some of the actions."


    Some of people charged for the abuses at Abu Ghraib also said orders came from the top of government.

    "In 2006, a criminal complaint was filed against Donald Rumsfeld by eight former soldiers and intelligence operatives, including Janis Karpinski, who had been in charge of Abu Ghraib prison until early 2004, and former army counterintelligence special agent David DeBatto. Among other things, the complaint stated that Rumsfeld both knew of and authorized enhanced interrogation techniques that he knew to be illegal under international law."

    "On May 7, 2004, Pierre Krähenbühl, Operations Director for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), stated that inspection visits made by the ICRC to detention centers run by the U.S. and its allies showed that acts of prisoner abuse were not isolated acts, but were part of a "pattern and a broad system." He went on to say that some of the incidents they had observed were "tantamount to torture"."

    Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Furthermore, every report on torture disagrees with your opinion that these are simply bad apples. All the reports suggest that torture is an board pattern at overseas US detention centers, US citizens have been detained and indefinately held, and innocent people have died in custody.

    This should be a concern to all US citizens.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Some of these things I would have to consider the source, such as the claim that US citizens were not only detained but tortured in the manner you speak of. As to the Abu Ghraib episodes, people were prosecuted for these acts as far as I know. So, lumping them together as some sort of sanctioned treatment is rather dishonest if you ask me. I think that some reporting these supposed acts do so for the shocking nature of them, and speak of possible isolated incidents by bad actors as if they are/were daily occurrences. All this supposed documentation of the nature that you outline depends largely on the source of the allegation.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    It is YOU, sir, who declares the conventional meanings of the word "torture" to be irrelevant. Not I, but YOU.

    Judging from the way you would like to define the actions of those practicing it, you would like me to believe, for example, that rape is not really rape as long as some government agent declares it to be "enhanced interrogation". Sophistry sir, nothing but sophistry.
    Capitalization of the whole word is a very persuasive argument in your book, Sir? That would certainly correspond nicely to your understanding of language and Newspeak.

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