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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I don't go to libraries--all that reading makes my head hurt. I only like books if they have big pictures in them. And I would never claim to have your knowledge of this, or anything else.

    The same waterboarding technique the Justice Dept. approved as legal has been used on thousands of U.S. servicemen as part of their survival training. This must make at least a half-dozen times here that I've seen someone falsely compare it with the excruciatingly painful and often fatal water tortures--often done just for sadistic sport--for which some Japanese were convicted in the Far East Tribunals after WWII and hanged as war criminals. This sleight-of-hand relies on a rhetorical trick that is so old Aristotle described it. It uses the fact two vastly different things can be described by the same word to suggest--falsely--that they are alike. It's like saying that a hangnail is just like decapitation because they both are "injuries."

    I don't care how long the negative effects of what U.S. interrogators did lasted, nor do I care about the tender psyches of jihadists who think it's fun to murder Americans. The lousy rats deserved a lot worse. When they had no more information to provide, they should have been tried for war crimes in a military tribunal. And when they'd been convicted, they should have been marched onto a gallows and had their greasy necks stretched, with the proceedings televised live all over the world. To hell with the enemies of this country, and to hell with anyone who sides with them against us.
    If the DOJ declared rape to be perfectly legal as long as it was done for specific reasons, would you agree?

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    It is laughable that the same people who pretend to be champions of individual freedom also turn right around and say "well THOSE people don't have rights, they're bad people!"

    And they have absolute trust that the United States government is using this power responsibly. The government they claim can't do anything right can just arbitrarily decide someone doesn't have rights, and they're totally ok with this.

    The same government they claim is creeping towards tyranny every day, they're ok with this.

    Literally none of their rhetoric is genuine.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I wonder what actions you would authorize if it was one of your loved ones who could lose their life at the hands of a terrorist? Are you that cold hearted and liberal that the human life of your loved one isn't worth the effort to get the information to save them? I would do whatever it takes to save one of my family members including waterboarding which hurt no one.
    Although much can be said about this I will be brief. First of all you say you would do anything to save one of your family members. Would you kill one of my children to save one of your family members, even if I had done nothing to you? I know you are taking about terrorists, but my point is this, I hope there is a limit that you place on what you are willing to do to save a family member, because if there is not, then you have the mind of a terrorist.

    Second, and lastly for the save of brevity, do you realize that information that is obtained using torture has a tendency to be unreliable because a person will say anything they think that will relieve them of the pain that is being inflicted upon them by a torturer.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Although much can be said about this I will be brief. First of all you say you would do anything to save one of your family members. Would you kill one of my children to save one of your family members, even if I had done nothing to you? I know you are taking about terrorists, but my point is this, I hope there is a limit that you place on what you are willing to do to save a family member, because if there is not, then you have the mind of a terrorist.

    Second, and lastly for the save of brevity, do you realize that information that is obtained using torture has a tendency to be unreliable because a person will say anything they think that will relieve them of the pain that is being inflicted upon them by a torturer.
    If your loved one was one of the animals that had information on a threat to my family, I would do anything to remove that threat and prevent it from happening. If one of your loved ones knew of a plan to kill thousands of Americans I would do anything to get the information to prevent that. Now tell me what you would do to prevent the murder of one of your loved ones?

    How do you know the information obtained from the so called torture which is inflicted on our own troops for survival training didn't provide evidence of value? You believe in guilty until proven innocent? Not one person in authority was interviewed for the report which is like the prosecutor having the entire stage and the defense not allowed to present their case. Sounds a lot like some communist ideology to me.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's been done many times before. We have prosecuted not only the Japanese for waterbording, but our own soldiers in VN. Of course, if you knew anything about this you would know that. These techniques also come from a CIA handbook on torture used by our enemies. They noted the negative effects last longer and are more devastating than physical abuse. Again, none of this is a secret. Books have been written on this by the dozens. I suggest visiting a library for more indepth reading on the subject.
    Boo, I agree with you, I wouldn't do a damn thing to get information out of a terrorists who had information about a plan to harm your family. Do you realize how stupid that is? It is very easy for people like you who have never had a family member threatened or probably never served to have the opinions you do but you are far from an expert and far from anyone with credibility when it comes to getting information from animals who aren't part of the Geneva Convention or any other civilized leadership position.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    If your loved one was one of the animals that had information on a threat to my family, I would do anything to remove that threat and prevent it from happening. If one of your loved ones knew of a plan to kill thousands of Americans I would do anything to get the information to prevent that.
    My loved ones are none of that, so my question to you is, since you would do anything to save your loved ones, would you kill one of mine, who has done nothing to you, to save one of yours. If the answer is yes, then you have the mind of a terrorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Now tell me what you would do to prevent the murder of one of your loved ones?
    What I would not do to save a loved one is kill another innocent person, unless there was a much larger issue involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    How do you know the information obtained from the so called torture which is inflicted on our own troops for survival training didn't provide evidence of value?
    What I know, and it is an established fact, is that information obtained under torture has a tendency to be unreliable because of the reason that I mentioned. It is not necessarily unreliable, but it has a tendency to be unreliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You believe in guilty until proven innocent?
    I believe that you are guilty if in truth, you did it, and you are innocent if you did not, in truth do it.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    MildSteel;1064132298]My loved ones are none of that, so my question to you is, since you would do anything to save your loved ones, would you kill one of mine, who has done nothing to you, to save one of yours. If the answer is yes, then you have the mind of a terrorist.
    That is absolutely a stupid question, these people were picked up on the battle field after killing or trying to kill Americans. You really need to do better research. Those people did harm to your fellow Americans and if your kids were in that group, you bet I would do anything I could to prevent them from killing or harming more. None of the techniques used by our military did any permanent harm as these people are still alive. Other American families aren't so lucky due to the actions of individuals these people knew. Stop reading the headlines and find out who got enhanced interrogation


    What I would not do to save a loved one is kill another innocent person, unless there was a much larger issue involved.
    So you claim these people were innocent? You have no idea who received enhanced interrogation or apparently no idea what is going on in the world today

    What I know, and it is an established fact, is that information obtained under torture has a tendency to be unreliable because of the reason that I mentioned. It is not necessarily unreliable, but it has a tendency to be unreliable.
    That is your opinion, you have no idea what information was obtained because the report was partial and didn't tell the whole story. A tendency to be unreliable? Find out who received enhanced interrogation because it appears that you believe innocent people were interrogated


    I believe that you are guilty if in truth, you did it, and you are innocent if you did not, in truth do it.
    Terrorists are much more than criminals, they are animals. Check out the beheaded Americans and Burned/tortured Americans on the web

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And no, it is not what we do to our own soldiers. Those who run that program testified before congress and made clear it was not the same. So, you're factually wrong about what we do to our own.
    Where is your evidence for that? I don't believe anyone offered credible testimony to anyone in Congress that the water technique approved for use by U.S. interrogators differed significantly from the technique used on U.S. servicemen in SERE training. The technique approved for interrogators was described in detail in government documents, and I have read them. It strictly limited how long a single administration could last--about 15-20 seconds--how many there could be in any one session, how many sessions there could be in any one day, etc. The subject's feet had to be kept higher than his head to make drowning impossible, and a doctor had to be in the room throughout the procedure.

    And no, the list of the crimes for the Japanese included waterboarding. It was listed and prosecuted.
    What of it? Where is your evidence that "waterboarding" as done by Japanese war criminals was anything like the technique approved for use by U.S. interrogators? Next you'll be trying to tell us the bird bath in someone's garden is just like Lake Michigan, because they are both "bodies of water."

    And as we did this to innocent people, 26 listed in the report, and as well killed one of them in a stress position, an innocent person, your ranting about jihadists is merely a diversion from the point.
    The report you love so well is a collection of lies designed to slander this country.

    Torture is illegal.
    That is exactly why all of the enhanced interrogation techniques approved for use by U.S. interrogators were designed not to violate either section 2340 of the U.S. Code or any other applicable U.S. laws against torture. And after painstaking, detailed legal analysis, the Justice Dept.'s Office of Legal Counsel determined that they did not violate any of those laws.[/QUOTE]

    And on orders, we tortured.
    You can prattle that slander against the United States until you are blue in the face, and it will not make it one bit less false.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    If the DOJ declared rape to be perfectly legal as long as it was done for specific reasons, would you agree?
    Nonsense on stilts. Like other crimes, rape is mostly the subject of state law, not federal. In any case, it should be obvious that the U.S. Department of Justice, as part of the Executive Branch, would have no authority to amend or repeal any law enacted by Congress--including any law against rape.

    Because torture is a crime under section 2340 of the U.S. Code and other federal law, it could never be "legal," regardless of the reasons for engaging in it.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    That is absolutely a stupid question, these people were picked up on the battle field after killing or trying to kill Americans. You really need to do better research.

    ............

    So you claim these people were innocent?

    ................
    You have totally missed the point. I have said nothing about the innocence or guilt of persons who were tortured for the sake of getting information on terrorism. What I asked you was a hypothetical question meant to illustrate that there should be a limit on what you are willing to do to save a loved one, rather than being willing to do anything to save a loved one. Again, would you kill one of my loved ones, to save one of yours, even though mine have done nothing to you?



    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    That is your opinion
    No it is more than my opinion. It is also the opinion of psychologists who have studied the matter and concluded that information obtained by torture has the tendency to be unreliable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Terrorists are much more than criminals, they are animals. Check out the beheaded Americans and Burned/tortured Americans on the web
    Yep and they, like everyone else, will have a tendency to say anything, even if it's not true, to make someone stop torturing them.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 12-27-14 at 03:48 PM.

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