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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

  1. #401
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I was specifically talking about an innocent man killed in custody at Bagram, not Abu Graib.
    As you saw that was also covered.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    And again, it's not my opinion that the CIA led US military personnel in interrogation techniques, that is pretty much accepted as fact by nearly everybody.
    And again irrelevant to what is being discussed. Individual bad actors, or the Government acting.
    It was individual bad actors as has been repeatedly shown.

    All you provided was unsupportable allegations to suggest it was the Government acting.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    The Bush Admin muddled the debate on what qualified as torture.
    That is your opinion. While you have many Citizens on your side who believe that, there are just as many that don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    There was no denial about the techniques I listed previously in the thread, and that those techniques came from the top of government.
    The techniques are only in question in your thoughts. Because as already shown, those methods were already investigated by the Justice department and no charges followed.
    That has been established, period. There is no getting beyond that. That is the end of that specific argument. Everything else about that is just opinion.


    The argument is over whether those individual actors were acting on their own or at the Government's behest.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    In fact, Megan Kelly recently criticized the CIA torture report as distasteful to release to the public because it "saved American lives." She didn't deny government involvement...
    And? Do you actually care what an opinionated reporter says?
    And just how do you think she is relevant at all?
    Let me clue you in to something you obviously do not know. Her opinion matters not, just as Rush Limbaugh or Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's opinions matters not.
    What matters here is our Justice Department. Nothing else.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Those techniques, in the case of Bagram, killed an innocent man.

    No. Individual actors taking the technique too far did. Do you really not understand the difference?


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    If you're fine with an innocent man being held indefinitely and killed in US custody, and don't consider the techniques torture, then that's nothing more than you ignorant opinion.
    Your opinion is the ignorant one. Especially not realizing that it was an individual actor taking the technique too far and instead trying to absurdly suggest that indicated Government involvement. D'oh!

    Secondly, do not assume anything about my position unless I already stated it.
    I am not okay with indefinite confinement. But this discussion isn't about that. So stop assuming.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Do you know how wiki citations work....

    I linked the source per the wiki article. Wiki articles are like term papers, and I wrote many term papers in college.
    Holy ****! :rolls eyes like thirty thousand times:

    No you didn't link the source because it did not address all that you provided from wiki. Had you bothered to check, you would have realized that.
    What you did was make a lazy attempt, and even tried to make it look as though you assembled the words when they actually came from wiki.
    Not checking was lazy, trying to make it appear as if you wrote it, dishonesty.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Nobody, other than you, denies the CIA designed the techniques. You're arguments are beginning to make no sense, and it doesn't even look like you're attempting to address my actual posts. Have fun rambling on and on, because I am done conversing with you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    As you saw that was also covered.


    And again irrelevant to what is being discussed. Individual bad actors, or the Government acting.
    It was individual bad actors as has been repeatedly shown.

    All you provided was unsupportable allegations to suggest it was the Government acting.


    That is your opinion. While you have many Citizens on your side who believe that, there are just as many that don't.


    The techniques are only in question in your thoughts. Because as already shown, those methods were already investigated by the Justice department and no charges followed.
    That has been established, period. There is no getting beyond that. That is the end of that specific argument. Everything else about that is just opinion.


    The argument is over whether those individual actors were acting on their own or at the Government's behest.

    And? Do you actually care what an opinionated reporter says?
    And just how do you think she is relevant at all?
    Let me clue you in to something you obviously do not know. Her opinion matters not, just as Rush Limbaugh or Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's opinions matters not.
    What matters here is our Justice Department. Nothing else.



    No. Individual actors taking the technique too far did. Do you really not understand the difference?


    Your opinion is the ignorant one. Especially not realizing that it was an individual actor taking the technique too far and instead trying to absurdly suggest that indicated Government involvement. D'oh!

    Secondly, do not assume anything about my position unless I already stated it.
    I am not okay with indefinite confinement. But this discussion isn't about that. So stop assuming.


    Holy ****! :rolls eyes like thirty thousand times:

    No you didn't link the source because it did not address all that you provided from wiki. Had you bothered to check, you would have realized that.
    What you did was make a lazy attempt, and even tried to make it look as though you assembled the words when they actually came from wiki.
    Not checking was lazy, trying to make it appear as if you wrote it, dishonesty.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And whom do you think should stand charges for this? Does it stop at the actual people in the room at the time, or those up the chain?
    I don't like to say this, because I truly dislike GW Bush, but he is the
    first domino in the torture chain. It was no secret that Gonzales and Yo
    were pushed to write legislation that made the torture "Legal." I'd buy a
    ticket to see Dick Cheney swing, but the blame is on the "decider," the
    infamous dim son.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    But the key is just how much of the "other things" are torture?... I mean, I've seen some people describe yelling at someone as such...It is getting ridiculous.
    Such is not the case here. Waterboarding, stress positions, and sleep deprivation are all torture and not equal to just yelling at someone.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Such is not the case here. Waterboarding, stress positions, and sleep deprivation are all torture and not equal to just yelling at someone.
    Please show us your evidence that any of those things constitutes torture under any U.S. law. The Office of Legal Counsel in the Justice Department did an extremely thorough study of just that question, and their conclusion did not agree with yours. I've studied their memos on the issue, and everything about them is just the kind of first-rate legal analysis I'd expect form the OLC, which employs the creme de la creme of federal lawyers to give opinions on the most difficult issues. The main authors were Jay Bybee, who last I heard was a California appeals court judge, and John Yoo, who is a professor of constitutional law (a real one, not a Barack-Obama-type guest lecturer) at UC Berkeley. I'll leave it anyone here to decide whose opinion to lend more weight to--theirs, or yours.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Please show us your evidence that any of those things constitutes torture under any U.S. law. The Office of Legal Counsel in the Justice Department did an extremely thorough study of just that question, and their conclusion did not agree with yours. I've studied their memos on the issue, and everything about them is just the kind of first-rate legal analysis I'd expect form the OLC, which employs the creme de la creme of federal lawyers to give opinions on the most difficult issues. The main authors were Jay Bybee, who last I heard was a California appeals court judge, and John Yoo, who is a professor of constitutional law (a real one, not a Barack-Obama-type guest lecturer) at UC Berkeley. I'll leave it anyone here to decide whose opinion to lend more weight to--theirs, or yours.
    It's been done many times before. We have prosecuted not only the Japanese for waterbording, but our own soldiers in VN. Of course, if you knew anything about this you would know that. These techniques also come from a CIA handbook on torture used by our enemies. They noted the negative effects last longer and are more devastating than physical abuse. Again, none of this is a secret. Books have been written on this by the dozens. I suggest visiting a library for more indepth reading on the subject.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    John Yoo, who is a professor of constitutional law (a real one, not a Barack-Obama-type guest lecturer) at UC Berkeley.
    Thanks for clarifying your position.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's been done many times before. We have prosecuted not only the Japanese for waterbording, but our own soldiers in VN. Of course, if you knew anything about this you would know that. These techniques also come from a CIA handbook on torture used by our enemies. They noted the negative effects last longer and are more devastating than physical abuse. Again, none of this is a secret. Books have been written on this by the dozens. I suggest visiting a library for more indepth reading on the subject.
    I don't go to libraries--all that reading makes my head hurt. I only like books if they have big pictures in them. And I would never claim to have your knowledge of this, or anything else.

    The same waterboarding technique the Justice Dept. approved as legal has been used on thousands of U.S. servicemen as part of their survival training. This must make at least a half-dozen times here that I've seen someone falsely compare it with the excruciatingly painful and often fatal water tortures--often done just for sadistic sport--for which some Japanese were convicted in the Far East Tribunals after WWII and hanged as war criminals. This sleight-of-hand relies on a rhetorical trick that is so old Aristotle described it. It uses the fact two vastly different things can be described by the same word to suggest--falsely--that they are alike. It's like saying that a hangnail is just like decapitation because they both are "injuries."

    I don't care how long the negative effects of what U.S. interrogators did lasted, nor do I care about the tender psyches of jihadists who think it's fun to murder Americans. The lousy rats deserved a lot worse. When they had no more information to provide, they should have been tried for war crimes in a military tribunal. And when they'd been convicted, they should have been marched onto a gallows and had their greasy necks stretched, with the proceedings televised live all over the world. To hell with the enemies of this country, and to hell with anyone who sides with them against us.
    Last edited by matchlight; 12-27-14 at 01:30 AM.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I don't go to libraries--all that reading makes my head hurt. I only like books if they have big pictures in them. And I would never claim to have your knowledge of this, or anything else.

    The same waterboarding technique the Justice Dept. approved as legal has been used on thousands of U.S. servicemen as part of their survival training. This must be about a dozen times here that I've seen this same ruse of comparing it with the nauseatingly sadistic and often fatal water tortures for which some Japanese prison guards were convicted in the Far East Tribunals and executed as war criminals. This sleight-of-hand relies on a rhetorical trick that is so old Aristotle described it. It uses the fact two vastly different things can be described by the same word to suggest--falsely--that they are alike. It's like saying that a hangnail is just like decapitation because they both are "injuries."

    I don't care how long the negative effects last, nor do I care about the tender psyches of jihadist bastards who think it's fun to murder Americans. I would have done a lot worse than that to the lousy rats, and when they had no more information to provide, tried them for war crimes in a military tribunal. And when they'd been convicted, I would have marched them onto a gallows and stretched their greasy necks, with the proceedings televised live all over the world. To hell with the enemies of this country, and to hell with their aiders and abetters, wherever they may live.
    That explains a lot. Books are where the real information is.

    And no, it is not what we do to our own soldiers. Those who run that program testified before congress and made clear it was not the same. So, you're factually wrong about what we do to our own.

    And no, the list of the crimes for the Japanese included waterboarding. It was listed and prosecuted.

    As was the prosecution of US soldiers in VN.

    And as we did this to innocent people, 26 listed in the report, and as well killed one of them in a stress position, an innocent person, your ranting about jihadists is merely a diversion from the point. Torture is illegal. And on orders, we tortured.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    The Neocons are going to hate this thread.

    Neocon logic...'everything we do is right because everything we do is for America - even when it does not in any remote way seem good for America. So, we can torture anyone for any reason and it is ALWAYS right and should never be questioned or openly discussed. And anyone who disagrees is un-American (even if they are American)...and should be tortured'.

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