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Thread: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

  1. #391
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    You may already know, but in 2009 at a court in Kuala Lampur, in accordance with international legal procedures, led by the US law professor Francis Boyle, Bush, Cheney and a few others I think, were convicted of war crimes IN ABSENTIA. All international procedures were followed, the defendants refused to participate, evidence was presented and a conviction was returned.

    Point is, pretending that crimes did NOT occur is extremely silly, almost to the point of delusion, ESPECIALLY with the release of the Senate report recently. Even in 2008 General Antonio Taguba stated on the record: "There is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. ("We tortured some folks") The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held accountable."
    I know that there have been mock trails and third world propaganda shows condemning Bush. That does not lend any credibility to you accusations, however.
    Rather it is this type of talk and lack of differentiation I was referring to earlier. It is really stupid to say that kind of stuff for people that earnestly want crimes to be prosecuted and not only used as propaganda. I did not, you see, say that no crimes were committed. But the procedures that were allowed were legal and are in no way torture, if you do not want to make the word meaningless. It does the cause of justice a great disservice.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob0627 View Post
    No, I was speaking about torture and murder by torture, which I understand means nothing to you.
    You understand nothing then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob0627 View Post
    To you, you've already made that clear.

    No. Not to me. Literally.
    What the senate report says means absolutely nothing in terms of what the Government believes was, or wasn't lawful.
    That is up to the Justice Department, which is why I keep bringing it up. D'oh!
    If the Justice Department didn't find any such violations to charge you have only your opinion as I stated.
    And then had the Justice Department believed torture was committed and charged such, a conviction would have to be had for it to actually be confirmed as torture.

    So again. Literally.
    Other than that, all you have is your opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob0627 View Post
    No, we have documented evidence, admissions and eyewitness accounts. The mentality is so twisted. As an analogy, when you see a body riddled with bullets, do you need a trial to know a murder took place?
    iLOL
    You have nothing confirmed. Only your opinion that it constituted torture.

    And for the argument between her and me, nothing has been backed up to support the allegation that the individuals who acting wrongly on their own was at the behest of the Government. All you have is them acting beyond the scope of their authority and on their own accord.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob0627 View Post
    There will likely be no prosecutions in the US, however that's not the reason. There are no statute of limitations for war crimes or murder.
    1. Those who have acted wrongly have been charged.
    2. As to this Senate report. There will be none. The statute of limitations has already passed and we (as in the U.S.) are the only ones who could prosecute.
    And the Justice department did not charge any war crime, and since we are not party to the ICC, there will be no valid charges or trial for such an absurd allegation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob0627 View Post
    The only one not making any points is you. But you're right about those circles, discussing the issue with someone who clearly denies torture and war crimes is a waste of time.
    Well, the interrogation methods were designed not to run afoul, and no finding resulting in charges that they did... The only one in denial between the two of us is you.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    I am not pushing unsupported allegations. What I am saying is documented by two investigations into government torture programs.

    I already provided links stating those soldiers weren't acting on their own authority. They said higher ups knew what they were doing, and higher ups approved and trained them in the methodologies.

    And again, they were barely prosecuted by US military courts. How is downgrading a guy's rank for being involved in beating two people to death (one who was completely innocent and not involved in terrorism) fit the crime? These people were not appropriately punished or punished at all by the US government.




    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Guess what? You haven't proven any such thing. D'oh!

    All you have is an unsupported allegation.

    And Soldiers acting on their own, even if following approved techniques, does not mean it is the Government doing it.
    What it does mean is some soldiers acted outside of their authority and were brought to justice.
    Even if you do not like the outcome. If you want to opine that is a travesty of Justice, go ahead.
    It still doesn't actually matter one bit to whether or not it was the Government acting or just the individual.

    The Government has taught many a soldier to kill. But you do not see folks going around blaming the Government when they kill someone outside the scope of their actual duties.
    But you do see them prosecuted.
    Same here.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 12-26-14 at 03:52 PM.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    He is a brick wall...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I've made the point sufficiently well that you seem obsessed. That's cool.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    He is a brick wall...
    No, that wold be you.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I know that there have been mock trails and third world propaganda shows condemning Bush. That does not lend any credibility to you accusations, however.
    Rather it is this type of talk and lack of differentiation I was referring to earlier. It is really stupid to say that kind of stuff for people that earnestly want crimes to be prosecuted and not only used as propaganda. I did not, you see, say that no crimes were committed. But the procedures that were allowed were legal and are in no way torture, if you do not want to make the word meaningless. It does the cause of justice a great disservice.
    It is YOU, sir, who declares the conventional meanings of the word "torture" to be irrelevant. Not I, but YOU.

    Judging from the way you would like to define the actions of those practicing it, you would like me to believe, for example, that rape is not really rape as long as some government agent declares it to be "enhanced interrogation". Sophistry sir, nothing but sophistry.

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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I am not pushing unsupported allegations.
    Yes you are. This thread is about the Government supposedly conducting torture.
    YOu then went off on a tangent and brought up individuals who acted on their own and were charged and punished for such. That is not not the Government acting. That is an unsupportable allegation.

    You even went as far to make false claims like "ramming".

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    What I am saying is documented by two investigations into government torture programs.
    Government action is not documented in what you presented. Individual bad actor are.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I already provided links stating those soldiers weren't acting on their own authority. They said higher ups knew what they were doing, and higher ups approved and trained them in the methodologies.
    Nothing you provided to me says that.

    What you provided was a screwed-up, plagiarized?, rewritten?, miss-attributed quote or something.

    The information mostly verbatim came from wiki, but you then linked to a story from the NY Times as if it had come from there.
    The way it was presented was really screwed up.

    The only actual link provided came from the NY Times, besides confirming that the bad actors were indeed brought to justice, only contained an unsupportable allegation of "may". And that wouldn't even support a claim that the Government was involved. Just individual bad actors.

    In an interview on Sunday, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who oversaw Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq but has since been admonished and suspended from command, described Captain Wood as an impressive and well-spoken expert on interrogations who oversaw the center. Colonel Buckner said that Captain Wood's commanding officer in Iraq, Lt. Col. Robert Whalen, was not available for comment. To date, seven enlisted personnel from a military police unit have been the only soldiers charged with crimes in connection with the abuses at Abu Ghraib. But an Army report completed in March identified Colonel Jordan as among four people who may have been among those "directly or indirectly" responsible for the misconduct.
    Do you understand what "may" means?
    It certainly doesn't mean the Government acted in any such way, does it?
    It pretty much means there is not enough evidence to support his being one of the bad actors.
    That is all that means. Not that the Government was actually involved and aware.

    And don't even begin to assume the General's removal was because of involvement.


    •∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙ •◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦ ∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦ ∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•

    Yes, it is quite clear that you are pushing unsupportable allegations.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    •∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙ •◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦ ∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦ ∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•

    So, from the information that you didn't link to and either plagiarized?, rewrote? or miss-attributed from wiki, the following information from a 60 minute interview was provided.



    Showing again that individual actors were prosecuted and held accountable. And nothing but just more unsupportable allegations.

    Specialist Glendale C. Walls of the U.S. Army was the only person convicted of Dilawar's death, and he served two months. Dilawar was beaten to death and his corpse was left chained to the ceiling.

    Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was appointed chief of staff by Secretary of State Colin Powell in 2002, during George W. Bush’s first administration. Wilkerson told “60 Minutes” that he could “smell” a cover-up and was asked by Powell to investigate how American soldiers had come to use torture and stated; "I was developing the picture as to how this all got started in the first place, and that alarmed me as much as the abuse itself because it looked like authorization for the abuse went to the very top of the United States government". Willie V. Brand, a solider convicted of assault and maiming in two deaths, and Brand’s commanding officer, Capt. Christopher Beiring confirmed that several of their leaders had witnessed and knew about the abuse and torture of the prisoners.

    Beiring and Brand showed no remorse when recounting the torture. Beiring was charged with dereliction of duty, a charge that was later dropped. Brand was convicted at his court martial, but rather than the 16 years in prison he was facing from the charges brought against him, he was given a reduction in his rank.


    Actual source link for the info

    You know, there is a big difference between supportable allegations and unsupportable allegations, right?
    Just as there is a difference between factual information and allegations. The former against the Government being that which you lack in what you provided.


    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    And again, they were barely prosecuted by US military courts. How is downgrading a guy's rank for being involved in beating two people to death (one who was completely innocent and not involved in terrorism) fit the crime? These people were not appropriately punished or punished at all by the US government.
    And again. Still irrelevant.
    They were prosecuted.
    The outcomes matters not. What you think is proper punishment matters.
    The wrong doers were prosecuted and held accountable. Period.


    Yes SheWolf, you clearly were pushing unsupportable allegations as that is all there are.
    And you got the nerve to make a single post personally attacking another poster, when it is you that is the brickwall.
    Last edited by Excon; 12-26-14 at 05:57 PM.
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    I was specifically talking about an innocent man killed in custody at Bagram, not Abu Graib. And again, it's not my opinion that the CIA led US military personnel in interrogation techniques, that is pretty much accepted as fact by nearly everybody. The Bush Admin muddled the debate on what qualified as torture. There was no denial about the techniques I listed previously in the thread, and that those techniques came from the top of government. In fact, Megan Kelly recently criticized the CIA torture report as distasteful to release to the public because it "saved American lives." She didn't deny government involvement...

    Those techniques, in the case of Bagram, killed an innocent man. If you're fine with an innocent man being held indefinitely and killed in US custody, and don't consider the techniques torture, then that's nothing more than you ignorant opinion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Yes you are. This thread is about the Government supposedly conducting torture.
    YOu then went off on a tangent and brought up individuals who acted on their own and were charged and punished for such. That is not not the Government acting. That is an unsupportable allegation.

    You even went as far to make false claims like "ramming".

    Government action is not documented in what you presented. Individual bad actor are.


    Nothing you provided to me says that.

    What you provided was a screwed-up, plagiarized?, rewritten?, miss-attributed quote or something.

    The information mostly verbatim came from wiki, but you then linked to a story from the NY Times as if it had come from there.
    The way it was presented was really screwed up.

    The only actual link provided came from the NY Times, besides confirming that the bad actors were indeed brought to justice, only contained an unsupportable allegation of "may". And that wouldn't even support a claim that the Government was involved. Just individual bad actors.

    In an interview on Sunday, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who oversaw Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq but has since been admonished and suspended from command, described Captain Wood as an impressive and well-spoken expert on interrogations who oversaw the center. Colonel Buckner said that Captain Wood's commanding officer in Iraq, Lt. Col. Robert Whalen, was not available for comment. To date, seven enlisted personnel from a military police unit have been the only soldiers charged with crimes in connection with the abuses at Abu Ghraib. But an Army report completed in March identified Colonel Jordan as among four people who may have been among those "directly or indirectly" responsible for the misconduct.
    Do you understand what "may" means?
    It certainly doesn't mean the Government acted in any such way, does it?
    It pretty much means there is not enough evidence to support his being one of the bad actors.
    That is all that means. Not that the Government was actually involved and aware.

    And don't even begin to assume the General's removal was because of involvement.


    •∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙ •◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦ ∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦ ∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•

    Yes, it is quite clear that you are pushing unsupportable allegations.

  10. #400
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    Re: UN Officials Demand Prosecutions for US Torture

    Do you know how wiki citations work....

    I linked the source per the wiki article. Wiki articles are like term papers, and I wrote many term papers in college.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    •∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙ •◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦ ∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦ ∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•◦∙◦•∙•

    So, from the information that you didn't link to and either plagiarized?, rewrote? or miss-attributed from wiki, the following information from a 60 minute interview was provided.



    Showing again that individual actors were prosecuted and held accountable. And nothing but just more unsupportable allegations.

    Specialist Glendale C. Walls of the U.S. Army was the only person convicted of Dilawar's death, and he served two months. Dilawar was beaten to death and his corpse was left chained to the ceiling.

    Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was appointed chief of staff by Secretary of State Colin Powell in 2002, during George W. Bush’s first administration. Wilkerson told “60 Minutes” that he could “smell” a cover-up and was asked by Powell to investigate how American soldiers had come to use torture and stated; "I was developing the picture as to how this all got started in the first place, and that alarmed me as much as the abuse itself because it looked like authorization for the abuse went to the very top of the United States government". Willie V. Brand, a solider convicted of assault and maiming in two deaths, and Brand’s commanding officer, Capt. Christopher Beiring confirmed that several of their leaders had witnessed and knew about the abuse and torture of the prisoners.

    Beiring and Brand showed no remorse when recounting the torture. Beiring was charged with dereliction of duty, a charge that was later dropped. Brand was convicted at his court martial, but rather than the 16 years in prison he was facing from the charges brought against him, he was given a reduction in his rank.


    Actual source link for the info

    You know, there is a big difference between supportable allegations and unsupportable allegations, right?
    Just as there is a difference between factual information and allegations. The former against the Government being that which you lack in what you provided.



    And again. Still irrelevant.
    They were prosecuted.
    The outcomes matters not. What you think is proper punishment matters.
    The wrong doers were prosecuted and held accountable. Period.


    Yes SheWolf, you clearly were pushing unsupportable allegations as that is all there are.
    And you got the nerve to make a single post personally attacking another poster, when it is you that is the brickwall.

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